.45 Reloading Questions

[July Smith]

SAAMI chamber specs are tapered, case specs are straight.  If accuracy and preventing/reducing blow by is desired you really will see an improvement if you size your brass with a steel die.  For cowboy action style shooting a slight gain in accuracy is not likely to be noticed, but cleaner cases and less soot in the action is nice.  If you search threads over on the cast boolits forum you will find lots of information regarding the differences between 45 colt steel dies and carbide ones.  

 

Here is a link to the most recent thread where the topic of steel vs carbide got brought up.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?337722-45-Colt-Old-School-ish

[SHOOTIN FOX]

PM sent

[Yusta B.]

3 hours ago, July Smith said:

It seems that other members have helped answer your questions.  One thing I will add is to do yourself a favor and pick up a steel sizer die.  Yes, carbide dies work, but steel ones size the 45colt case with a proper taper.  45colt brass that has been sized in a steel die seals the chamber much better and prevents a lot of the "blow by" shooters often complain about when shooting 45s.

Neck sizing only also helps if the cases fit in all your guns after. I feed 4 vaqueros & 2 marlins with this technique with no problems.

[Captain Clark]

2 hours ago, July Smith said:

SAAMI chamber specs are tapered, case specs are straight.  If accuracy and preventing/reducing blow by is desired you really will see an improvement if you size your brass with a steel die.  For cowboy action style shooting a slight gain in accuracy is not likely to be noticed, but cleaner cases and less soot in the action is nice.  If you search threads over on the cast boolits forum you will find lots of information regarding the differences between 45 colt steel dies and carbide ones.  

 

Here is a link to the most recent thread where the topic of steel vs carbide got brought up.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?337722-45-Colt-Old-School-ish

Thanks for the link July Smith! I'm going to run some brass thru a couple of steel die sets this evening and compare with some thru my carbides as well. That's very interesting reading. I've been messing around with 45 Colt since I was a kid...probably about 45 + years  and learned something new today!

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

The SAAMI chamber taper in straight wall cartridges is SOP across the board for all straight wall ammo.

The .45 Colt does appear have a bit more than the rest does.

http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/Z299-3_ANSI-SAAMI_CFPandR.pdf#page=10

 

Don't forget that your expander die and bullet dia. has the last say in the upper case dia after loading.

OLG

 

 

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

19 hours ago, Captain Clark said:

Ripsaws advice on the 160/180 grain 45 Colt loadings using TB is spot on. Of the other powders he mentions I have found 700x to be the cleanest by a bit when using the minimum load data! As you get to mid range load data, Clays begins to clean up and perform much better in my experience. Clay Dot is consistent performance wise as well. I have also used Tin Star with good results, but considering its price, scarcity, and temperature sensitivity it never really caught on.It does perform well with 200 gr + bullets.

 

Trail Boss does work very well in 45CS with the lighter bullets {150/160 } by using the Hodgdon load calculation formula on their website! Trail Boss loaded by using the formula will result in approx 615- 635 FPS with a 160 gr bullet. It is a soft and accurate pistol load for 45CS.

 

160 grains? In a 45? I know guys that use almost that in 38's. Forgive my ignorance, but what does a 160 grain 45 colt bullet look like? I mean after .452 diameter and a round nose, what's left? Does it crimp in a different location? Do the rounds get shorter with that small of a bullet? Is there even room for lube? I'm really curious.

[CodyMaverick]

3 hours ago, Redwood Kid said:

160 grains? In a 45? I know guys that use almost that in 38's. Forgive my ignorance, but what does a 160 grain 45 colt bullet look like? I mean after .452 diameter and a round nose, what's left? Does it crimp in a different location? Do the rounds get shorter with that small of a bullet? Is there even room for lube? I'm really curious.

 

  it looks like a ball with a couple of flat spots on it.  I think an actual ball would fly better.  I have tried a few times but never came up with a pistol load that I liked with them.

 

Picture courtesy of RedRiverBullets.com   Red River Ray's business, a great cowboy!

 

[Captain Clark]

5 hours ago, Redwood Kid said:

160 grains? In a 45? I know guys that use almost that in 38's. Forgive my ignorance, but what does a 160 grain 45 colt bullet look like? I mean after .452 diameter and a round nose, what's left? Does it crimp in a different location? Do the rounds get shorter with that small of a bullet? Is there even room for lube? I'm really curious.

a 160 looks like a 180 gr but a bit shorter. They have a regular crimp groove and a bit less nose length.

 

1 hour ago, CodyMaverick said:

 

  it looks like a ball with a couple of flat spots on it.  I think an actual ball would fly better.  I have tried a few times but never came up with a pistol load that I liked with them.

 

Picture courtesy of RedRiverBullets.com   Red River Ray's business, a great cowboy!

 

 With the right loading they work well in 45 CS cases in my experience!

 

 

[Rube Burrows]

Los of great info here. Thanks again for all the help.

 

I have been working with different loads but as I neared down towards the low grains I was curious what kind of loads others were using and not getting squibs and such. As always I work my loads up keeping safety in mind.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Don't forget, that this minimum load you have worked up in the summer. Could well become a squib come winter. 

OLG

[Ripsaw]

On 8/4/2017 at 3:05 PM, Rube Burrows said:

Los of great info here. Thanks again for all the help.

 

I have been working with different loads but as I neared down towards the low grains I was curious what kind of loads others were using and not getting squibs and such. As always I work my loads up keeping safety in mind.

Any load you develop is supposed to meet power factor of 60. I doubt you will need to worry about a squib under such conditions unless you fail to charge a case with powder. Also, temperature effects will not turn a 60 PF load into a squib.  Best to get and use a chronograph to verify your load results.  They are very affordable now. 

 

In my load development, the lowest .38 special load I tested averaged just over 400fps, with some rounds under 400. I settled on a load that averaged 650fps so as to be sure to meet PF.  It just felt like a good point and is plenty for any pistol knockdowns. 

[Doc Shapiro]

FYI, the quest for no-recoil rounds is counter productive.  Recoil is necessary for fast splits.  The most important thing is proper fundamentals and technique.  Don't overdue the light load thing. It will come back to bite you.

 

For the record, I have data to back this up.

[Pat Riot]

Personally, I like Unique powder for many applications including .45 Colt. When the powder crunch hit a couple years ago I couldn't find Unique anywhere. It would pop up on line but I don't buy powder on line. But what I could find was Universal powder. It is similar to Unique so I started using that and I like it very much. There are knuckleheads on some forums that say you can load Unique or Universal exactly the same but that is not true. They are similar but not exactly the same.

 

I load .45 Colt with a 205 grain Bear Creek Supply moly bullet heavily crimped with Universal powder at around 900 fps (a bit over the medium load on the Hodgdon reloading website). It's stout and accurate out of my revolvers, Ruger OMV 7.5" barrel, Ruger NMV 5.5" barrel and my 24" barreled Rossi 92.

I do not shoot light loads so I have never tried Universal or Unique in those applications.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Universal is just below Unique in burn rate.

I have never used Universal, how well does it meter compared to Unique?

http://www.wwpowder.com/PDF/Burn Rates - 2015-2016.pdf

 

OLG

[Pat Riot]

8 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Universal is just below Unique in burn rate.

I have never used Universal, how well does it meter compared to Unique?

http://www.wwpowder.com/PDF/Burn Rates - 2015-2016.pdf

 

OLG

Almost exactly the same. Except for color it looks nearly identical to Unique.

[CodyMaverick]

On 8/5/2017 at 9:42 PM, Doc Shapiro said:

Recoil is necessary for fast splits

 

I agree with everything you wrote but this,  how is it "necessary"?  Please elaborate.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

48 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Almost exactly the same. Except for color it looks nearly identical to Unique.

Makes one wonder if somedangebody was try'n to clone Unique then.....

OLG

[Doc Shapiro]

6 hours ago, CodyMaverick said:

 

I agree with everything you wrote but this,  how is it "necessary"?  Please elaborate.

 

I'll give the explanation a shot.  Let me know if you need further clarification.  Here goes...

 

You understand the principle behind Aikido or Judo?  These 2 martial arts use redirected energy to turn your attacker's energy against him.  You can also think of it as gently deflecting a rolling ball along a new path.  It's same same principle.  The recoil is redirected either into the next target or back into the original target (double tap).  So rather than fighting the recoil, you use the energy from it to move the gun.  In short, it's much easier (and faster) to use energy that's already in the system (introduced in the recoil) than to have to introduce energy in via muscles.

 

And like everything, there's a fine line between not enough recoil to do that job, and too much recoil where it interferes with your ability to redirect it. 

 

Was that a little clearer than mud?

[Ripsaw]

57 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

I'll give the explanation a shot.  Let me know if you need further clarification.  Here goes...

 

You understand the principle behind Aikido or Judo?  These 2 martial arts use redirected energy to turn your attacker's energy against him.  You can also think of it as gently deflecting a rolling ball along a new path.  It's same same principle.  The recoil is redirected either into the next target or back into the original target (double tap).  So rather than fighting the recoil, you use the energy from it to move the gun.  In short, it's much easier (and faster) to use energy that's already in the system (introduced in the recoil) than to have to introduce energy in via muscles.

 

And like everything, there's a fine line between not enough recoil to do that job, and too much recoil where it interferes with your ability to redirect it. 

 

Was that a little clearer than mud?

That makes no sense to this engineer. But then again, neither does the Game of Thrones craze...

[Doc Shapiro]

8 minutes ago, Ripsaw said:

That makes no sense to this engineer. But then again, neither does the Game of Thrones craze...

 

As an engineer, you should understand the concept of redirected energy (I'm pretty dang sure I have the term wrong).  Take something moving in a straight line and redirect it around a curve.  It takes less energy to redirect something moving to go around a curve, then it does to start something moving and then direct it around a curve. 

 

When recoil directs the gun backwards, you can redirect it around a small 180 degree curve back to the target.  If there isn't enough energy from the recoil, rather you have to physically drive the gun back to the target. 

Does that make more sense? 

[CodyMaverick]

2 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

As an engineer, you should understand the concept of redirected energy (I'm pretty dang sure I have the term wrong).  Take something moving in a straight line and redirect it around a curve.  It takes less energy to redirect something moving to go around a curve, then it does to start something moving and then direct it around a curve. 

 

When recoil directs the gun backwards, you can redirect it around a small 180 degree curve back to the target.  If there isn't enough energy from the recoil, rather you have to physically drive the gun back to the target. 

Does that make more sense? 

 

Ah no, it doesn't to me either.  It would not take any energy to drive the gun back to the target if there were no energy that drove it away in the first place.

 

In the martial arts example the defender uses the attackers forward momentum and adds a small amount of their own energy to redirect them in such a way as to put them off balance and/or to keep from being struck.  I don't think that analogy works when talking about recoil and split times.

 

When I questioned the idea that recoil was necessary for faster splits, it was based on my belief that zero recoil should allow for the fastest split times because zero time is lost in recovery.  But... I also believe that some recoil is helpful and perhaps necessary in that it provides the feedback that the shot has fired and signals the shooter to begin the next cycle.  While you could rely on hearing alone, touch can be processed and responded to more quickly in this case.  Any more recoil than necessary to provide this feedback will become counterproductive to faster times since it is just more movement off target that has to be recovered.

 

I think really fast shooting requires consistent ammo and a consistent grip that allows the shooter to manage the recoil such that the gun moves the same amount in the same direction shot after shot.  Then the shooter can get in to sync with that movement and be ready to fire the next shot as soon as the gun is back on target or on the next target as the case may be.

 

a couple of examples:

I have watched a lot of really fast single action shooters work the hammer more than 5 times to get off 5 shots and this indicates to me that they are not in sync with their pistol, they are just working the hammers as fast as they can and listening for the required number of reports.

 

I have also seen a lot of semi-auto shooters dip the muzzle after the slide has locked back indicating that they had pulled the trigger after the last shot had fired.  This tells me that they did not feel or register the feeling of the slide making only the half cycle and locking back.