Joe LaFives #5481 Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 10 hours ago, Smokestack said: If you read on above, you would see where I was going with this. The shooter could have taken the long gun with them downrange and held it while shooting their pistols duelist. It would not have been staged safely because it was not staged, but at the same time, it would not have been unsafe (which is never OK). Your assumption is wrong by the way. I have lots of experience with downrange movement type stages. That's great but then it shouldn't have even come up. If the shooter had done so, he would have just earned a P and no safety. So why the long discussion based on a different situation. I.E. The shooter leaving the long gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 17 hours ago, Smokestack said: If you read on above, you would see where I was going with this. The shooter could have taken the long gun with them downrange and held it while shooting their pistols duelist. It would not have been staged safely because it was not staged, but at the same time, it would not have been unsafe (which is never OK). ... At the risk of being repetitious, that option was proposed earlier in this thread (would be nice if the posts were numbered as they used to be, BTW). The stage instructions specified VERTICAL STAGING @ a specific location...failure to do so is a PROCEDURAL. The shooter does NOT have the option to safely transport the rifle downrange. The following is excerpted from the consensus opinion of the ROC regarding the OP (and subsequent discussion). This is based on previous match rulings as well: Quote Rifle and shot gun are staged at the same position. Shooter is to shoot the rifle string then restage the rifle vertically and move forward with the shotgun. The shooter instead restages the rifle horizontally and walks in front of the muzzle in the act of completing the stage. What is the call? Procedural for not following the staging instructions. It remains a P if no one crosses in front of the muzzle. A SDQ for "unsafe firearm handling" if someone walks in front of a downrange-pointing muzzle as a result that they (the shooter) left in that condition. The "sweeping" regs are irrelevant in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 42 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: At the risk of being repetitious, that option was proposed earlier in this thread (would be nice if the posts were numbered as they used to be, BTW). The stage instructions specified VERTICAL STAGING @ a specific location...failure to do so is a PROCEDURAL. The shooter does NOT have the option to safely transport the rifle downrange. The following is excerpted from the consensus opinion of the ROC regarding the OP (and subsequent discussion). This is based on previous match rulings as well: Sorry. I should have been more clear. I meant that it was another possibility that would not be an unsafe thing to do with it. It would of course be a procedural. I do fully understand and respect the way the ROC says it should be called. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk James Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Two years ago at Eldorado we had to stage our rifles vertical on a post to post fence with two lengths of horizontal wood in between next to a large box we had to run around and grab our shotgun and proceed down range. After sitting my rifle vertically on the fence, my rifle falls to the second run where it lands, It is leaning down range but has not hit the ground. I started to run back to fix it and the RO said it was ok so I grabbed my shotgun and went down range. It was determined I had swept myself and not the RO. What was the correct call? What should the penalties be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wapaloosie73 Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 This is how IPSC settles the issue in three gun competitions. The weapon being transitioned away from is always placed in the barrel MUZZLE DOWN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 6 hours ago, Wapaloosie73 said: This is how IPSC settles the issue in three gun competitions. The weapon being transitioned away from is always placed in the barrel MUZZLE DOWN. I shot at only one club that did this when going downrange. The barrel was secured and had soft cushioning in bottom. Always wondered why this hasn't been used more? How much more safely can a long gun be staged then with the barrel pointed into the ground? Thanks for posting and remembering a club that did this over 10 years ago. MT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Vinyl plastic garbage cans ain't cowboy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 54 minutes ago, Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 said: Vinyl plastic garbage cans ain't cowboy! I should have added they made them look like wooden rain/ fire barrels seen in many old west towns. MT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 said: Vinyl plastic garbage cans ain't cowboy! That must be the origin of the term "discard" in relation to what to do with long guns after finishing a shooting string. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 15 hours ago, Kirk James said: Two years ago at Eldorado we had to stage our rifles vertical on a post to post fence with two lengths of horizontal wood in between next to a large box we had to run around and grab our shotgun and proceed down range. After sitting my rifle vertically on the fence, my rifle falls to the second rung (rail) where it lands, It is leaning down range but has not hit the ground. I started to run back to fix it and the RO said it was ok so I grabbed my shotgun and went down range. It was determined I had swept myself and not the RO. What was the correct call? What should the penalties be? Can't sweep YOURSELF. (Folks need to stop saying that "you swept yourself.") It would have been no call because rifle stayed on the prop on which you were to stage it, pointed safely down range, and no other person had the gun pointed at them. Until you got in front of the muzzle. Then, according to what the ROC has declared (reported above) it would become a SDQ. (corrected). Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 The ROC clarification includes the shooter being in front of the muzzle of an unsafely staged/restaged firearm. To reiterate: the "sweeping" rules do not apply to a stationary long gun in that case...the SDQ would be for "unsafe firearm handling" by placing the firearm in an unsafe position for safe movement forward. HOWEVER...in the cited incident regarding a long gun that "slipped & fell" into a position that would be considered unsafe for downrange movement, it sounds like the TIMER OPERATOR, by stopping the shooter from returning to correct the situation and saying it was "OK" should have been taken into consideration in making any call against the shooter. If the T/O subsequently SDQd the shooter after telling him to go ahead, I would have considered an appeal of the call on those grounds. BUT...as in a situation in which the T/O tells a shooter with a cocked revolver in hand to MOVE!, it ultimately remains the shooter's responsibility to know whether the T/O's direction is safe or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 13 hours ago, Kirk James said: Two years ago at Eldorado we had to stage our rifles vertical on a post to post fence with two lengths of horizontal wood in between next to a large box we had to run around and grab our shotgun and proceed down range. After sitting my rifle vertically on the fence, my rifle falls to the second run where it lands, It is leaning down range but has not hit the ground. I started to run back to fix it and the RO said it was ok so I grabbed my shotgun and went down range. It was determined I had swept myself and not the RO. What was the correct call? What should the penalties be? What made it fall? On my first reading, I thought it was a prop failure, but I see you never said that. If it wasn't a prop failure, it should have been an SDQ and I don't know what to do about the improper coaching from the TO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk James Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 No idea. I heard it hit while moving around the box to the right. The TO called it a no call, even offered a reshoot, but was overruled by the posse marshal who said he was also the range safety officer. I did not protest the call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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