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WTC De-cocking ?


Yusta B.

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Had a gunfighter starting with pistols on a stage pulled hammers back at the buzzer, then decide he wasn't ready to start. He lowered the hammers & safely turned to the TO & asked to re-index his pistols  for a restart. He stated the hammers were not in a cocked condition. No one could verify that. What's the call ?

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Cocked. He had to proceed.

Page 23 #7 without the concurrence of the TO/RO

Stage DQ.

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7 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

Had a gunfighter starting with pistols on a stage pulled hammers back at the buzzer, then decide he wasn't ready to start. He lowered the hammers & safely turned to the TO & asked to re-index his pistols  for a restart. He stated the hammers were not in a cocked condition. No one could verify that. What's the call ?

Two entirely different scenarios.  If no one could verify they were cocked, how did the conclusion that he lowered the hammers come about?  At EOT a couple of years ago I drew my revolver and the hammer snapped on my suspenders.  I asked the TO if I could restart.  He said yes and watched as I put the hammer on half-cock, reindexed the cylinder, brought the hammer to full cock and lowered it and holstered.  After I shot and after about 20 minutes of discussion I was given a stage DQ.  The rationale being that permission to restart and permission to decock are two different things.

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The restart was fine with me - I had a problem with the condition of the pistols.
Does de-cocking mean from a cocked condition or any time the hammer leaves a "down" condition.

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Uuuhhhh.. 

For the shooter to ask the TO if he could re-index??

wouldn't they have to have been cocked??:huh:

But, if nobody could verify they were not cocked??

Why re-index??

For the shooter to ask if he can re-index,

he must have known he had cocked them.

in that case he didn't ask permission from the TO if he could de-cock..

If  you want to give the shooter the benefit of doubt.. No call :unsure:

 

Rance;)

Thinkin sumthin is weird here??:mellow:

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8 minutes ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

Uuuhhhh.. 

For the shooter to ask the TO if he could re-index??

wouldn't they have to have been cocked??:huh:

But, if nobody could verify they were not cocked??

Why re-index??

For the shooter to ask if he can re-index,

he must have known he had cocked them.

in that case he didn't ask permission from the TO if he could de-cock..

If  you want to give the shooter the benefit of doubt.. No call :unsure:

 

Rance;)

Thinkin sumthin is weird here??:mellow:

A hammer can be pulled back far enough to index the cylinder without actually reaching the point of catching in the sear (cocked). My question is: if you draw back the hammer enough to just barely move the cylinder, wouldn't you need permission to lower it back down ? It could possibly be in position to set off a round if a slip happened, depending on how far it moved.

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19 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

Had a gunfighter starting with pistols on a stage pulled hammers back at the buzzer,

Isn't that the definition of "cocking"??

 then decide he wasn't ready to start. He lowered the hammers

...from a COCKED condition??

& safely turned to the TO & asked to re-index his pistols  for a restart.

He stated the hammers were not in a cocked condition.

Who stated the hammers were not in a cocked condition?? ... at what point?

Had the shooter already DE-cocked them before asking the T/O if he could re-index??

If so, the penalty would be a SDQ.

IF not, who knows what the heck happened.

No one could verify that.

Verify what??

 What's the call ?

SDQ if the shooter decocked without consulting the T/O first.

 

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I know you are allowed a restart until the first round is down range so that part is fine. The part in question I guess is did he get permission to de-cock or did he do it own his own.

 

I posted at the same time as PWB......not trying to be a parrot........lol

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1 minute ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

So - if the hammer is lifted off the frame it's considered cocked.

1 minute ago, Cowboy Junky said:

I know you are allowed a restart until the first round is down range so that part is fine. The part in question I guess is did he get permission to de-cock or did he do it own his own.

As far as I'm concerned he did not get permission.

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Happened to me at GOA some years back. I shot my rifle and put it down and as I was drawing my first pistol everyone was yelling "One more round in the rifle". By this time I had the revolver cocked. I decocked it and holstered it, shot my rifle and then went back to shooting my pistols! Guess what???

 

STAGE DQ

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MUST get permission to de cock,,,  and say you wanted to give benefit of doubt, the sdq for live round under the hammer. and if he pushed it,, mdq for two offenses on the same stage...then he may want to agree to decocking penalty

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13 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

Thanks PWB - I surely missed that.

Of course it does not help that the current version of the ROI Handbook does not have a Glosary of Terms.  This needs to be fixed as version 21.6 is not available on the Shooter's Handbook tab on the SASS mainpage.

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3 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Happened to me at GOA some years back. I shot my rifle and put it down and as I was drawing my first pistol everyone was yelling "One more round in the rifle". By this time I had the revolver cocked. I decocked it and holstered it, shot my rifle and then went back to shooting my pistols! Guess what???

 

STAGE DQ

 

BOY! Am I ever glad I don't/can't shoot that fast.:ph34r::blush::rolleyes:

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Now wate a minute! The shooter asked the TO if he could reindex his revolvers. Are the hammers down on a live round at this time? The TO can verify this condition right there on the line and if true that is a SDQ.

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11 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Of course it does not help that the current version of the ROI Handbook does not have a Glosary of Terms.  This needs to be fixed as version 21.6 is not available on the Shooter's Handbook tab on the SASS mainpage.

 Yep....

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5 hours ago, Lead Monger said:

Now wate a minute! The shooter asked the TO if he could reindex his revolvers. Are the hammers down on a live round at this time? The TO can verify this condition right there on the line and if true that is a SDQ.

I guess if your goal is a clean match you could ask the TO then with permission De-cock, then have him verify the gun is on a empty cylinder and move on but that's going to take a lot of time and the potential to mess up intensives greatly.

There are several options IMO that you would be better off doing than that. Sometimes the safety penalties in SASS are heavy for the crimes committed but having a Colt, Clone or a Ruger with no transfer bars on a live round and running around with it that way can get down right ugly if the gun is dropped.

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6 hours ago, Lead Monger said:

Now wate a minute! The shooter asked the TO if he could reindex his revolvers. Are the hammers down on a live round at this time? The TO can verify this condition right there on the line and if true that is a SDQ.

 

Why would the shooter need to "re-index" if the hammers were NOT down on live rounds?
He either DE-COCKED without T/O's acknowledgement (
SHB p.23 #7) = SDQ

or

He came to the line with hammers down on live rounds from the LT = SDQ

...either way he's done for that stage. 

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at a match this month,, I pulled my pistols,, they were first,,  and slip hammered a pistol,,  I stopped looked back at the TO and asked permission to de cock,, he had a blank look,,  so I just said,, say ok,,, he did and I made both pistols safe,,,, turns out he didn't know you cud decock if a round had NOT gone down range.

 

 

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15 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Cocked – hammer not fully down (full, half-cock or safety notch).

 

So the stuff in parenthesis is superfluous, or is it defining 'cocked'?  Because there is definitely a period where the hammer is not fully down, the cylinder has begun to move, and it's also not yet at half cock.  I know because I've had the hammer slip on me before and it wound up not quite lined up to a cylinder.  Never seen anyone attempt to give a penalty for decocking in that situation.  Seems like it's not cocked until the trigger has to be used to get the hammer back down. 

 

8 hours ago, Lead Monger said:

Now wate a minute! The shooter asked the TO if he could reindex his revolvers. Are the hammers down on a live round at this time? The TO can verify this condition right there on the line and if true that is a SDQ.

 

Isn't 'hammer down on a live round' only a penalty if the gun leaves your hands or you change positions?

 

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2 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

So the stuff in parenthesis is superfluous, or is it defining 'cocked'?  Because there is definitely a period where the hammer is not fully down, the cylinder has begun to move, and it's also not yet at half cock.  I know because I've had the hammer slip on me before and it wound up not quite lined up to a cylinder.  Never seen anyone attempt to give a penalty for decocking in that situation.  Seems like it's not cocked until the trigger has to be used to get the hammer back down. 

 

 

Isn't 'hammer down on a live round' only a penalty if the gun leaves your hands or you change positions?

 

 

The "stuff in parenthesis" further defines what is meant by "hammer not fully down".

 

The "hammer down on a live round" is also a penalty if the shooter DE-COCKS the hammer (on a live round or not) without an OK from the T/O.

 

 

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While walking from the loading table to the firing like and your rifle hits a prop and cocks it, can't you ask to decock it under supervision before you shoot the stage .  I thought the basketball traveling run was in effect.

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2 hours ago, Kirk James said:

While walking from the loading table to the firing like and your rifle hits a prop and cocks it, can't you ask to decock it under supervision before you shoot the stage .  I thought the basketball traveling run was in effect.

 

I believe in this scenario..

The stage has not started..

Your rifle is still in hand..

If.. You decock yer rifle.. BEFORE it leaves your hands yer good to go..

If.. You stage yer rifle (take yer hands off) and haven't corrected the hammer cocked situation... SDQ..

Asking permission of the TO to decock?? 

I don't think is needed as the stage has not started.. Rifle not staged..

Rance;)

thinkin my perspective  :huh:

 

edit: might be a thingy about leaving the loading table

with cocked hammer.. But in yer scenario.. You didn't?

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