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Captain Bill Burt

What's the call?

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 Shooter is shooting a stage with a shared firing line with other stages. Shooter's called to the line, but then a ceasefire is called. Shooter goes back to the unloading table and places long guns on the table. Shooter than walks from the unloading table several yards up to the targets with loaded pistols still in holsters. What's the call?

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Quote

3. All firearms shall remain unloaded except when under the direct observation of a Range Officer on the firing line or in the loading area.

SHB p.23

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Would this fall under unsafe gun handling or failure to follow LT procedures ?

Nope, it wouldn't.

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15 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

SHB p.23

He was not under the supervision of the TO, or anyone else.  

 

I thought it it was a SDQ.

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5 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

He was not under the supervision of the TO, or anyone else.  

 

I thought it it was a SDQ.

 

That is what I would call under those circumstances.

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

He was not under the supervision of the TO, or anyone else.  

 

I thought it it was a SDQ.

What if he was from Alabama? :lol:

 

Kajun

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3 minutes ago, Krazy Kajun said:

What if he was from Alabama? :lol:

 

Kajun

 

Put him on double-secret probation!

;)

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Yes !

 

But perhaps the Shooter believed he was following the TO's instructions for this unusual event.

 

Which raises the question:  The Shooter should follow the TO's instruction.   But what if the Shooter's understanding of the instruction is different than the TO's intent.   Is the Shooter penalized for a TO's poor use of English ?   As the Shooter can likely NOT read minds.

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Not all that unusual for a common line. Rules are rules.....SDQ.

 

Reading minds, poor translation, doesn't matter.....SDQ.

 

I would not like being the one that HAD to make the call but that's the way it goes.

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1 hour ago, C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 said:

Yes !

 

But perhaps the Shooter believed he was following the TO's instructions for this unusual event.

 

Which raises the question:  The Shooter should follow the TO's instruction.   But what if the Shooter's understanding of the instruction is different than the TO's intent.   Is the Shooter penalized for a TO's poor use of English ?   As the Shooter can likely NOT read minds.

 

I don't see anywhere in the OP that the T/O gave any instructions...it was further clarified that the shooter wandered off toward the targets on his own & unsupervised.

We can't rely on mental telepathy or intent in applying a clearly written rule.

If the shooter wasn't certain what he was allowed to do with holstered/loaded revolvers during a general "cease fire", he should have asked before stepping away from the ULT...

 

IMO.

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Adopt a range rule that states something along the lines of, "...during any cease-fire, all loaded firearms MUST be placed on the loading table, or appropriate prop if the shooter is on the firing line, and ALL shooters will step back from their firearms by more than an arm's length."  Ingrain that in your shooters at every opportunity and it will become habit. 

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29 minutes ago, Griff said:

Adopt a range rule that states something along the lines of, "...during any cease-fire, all loaded firearms MUST be placed on the loading table, or appropriate prop if the shooter is on the firing line, and ALL shooters will step back from their firearms by more than an arm's length."  Ingrain that in your shooters at every opportunity and it will become habit. 

 

Refer to the "RED FLAG" / "CEASE FIRE" procedures in the RO1:

 

Quote

All shooting must immediately stop, and firearms must be laid down or otherwise made safe.

 

Holstered/loaded revolvers are considered "safe", but the shooter is not allowed to wander around the stage with them in that condition with no supervision.

Depending on the reason for the "CEASE FIRE"; and whether it occurs during active stage engagements, grounding them on the spot may not be the best course of action (e.g. someone popping up from behind a berm downrange of targets). In that case, "muzzles UP!" may be a better choice., rather than staging loaded (& possibly COCKED!) firearms...depending on the stage/range orientation.

 

 

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In this particular instance the shooter asked the to if he could come forward and do his prestage"walk thru"... so it was done with the to acknowledging he could. 

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1 hour ago, mean gun mark said:

In this particular instance the shooter asked the to if he could come forward and do his prestage"walk thru"... so it was done with the to acknowledging he could. 

 

THAT changes things considerably if the T/O allowed the shooter to do so with holstered/loaded revolvers.
In that case, if an RO was watching the shooter as he did so, it would be a NO CALL...IMO.

 

 

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Capt Bill, my first question to you is, why where you encroaching on my posse in the first place? Apparently, you did not hear me tell the shooter it was ok as long as his long guns stayed at the loading table until the  range was hot again.  Either get all the facts first before starting a stirup. 

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5 hours ago, Krazy Kajun said:

What if he was from Alabama? :lol:

 

Kajun

Double penalty! Unlike a Louisianan, Bama folks are supposed to know better.

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39 minutes ago, Boaz said:

Capt Bill, my first question to you is, why where you encroaching on my posse in the first place? Apparently, you did not hear me tell the shooter it was ok as long as his long guns stayed at the loading table until the  range was hot again.  Either get all the facts first before starting a stirup. 

Ok Boaz. I purposely didn't mention anything  about who or where because I wanted to know what the call would be without putting anyone on the spot.

 

But since you want to make it personal, I never encroached on your posse I was standing on stage nine waiting for your posse to clear the stage. As you may remember the unloading table for stage 9 and the loading table for stage 10 are adjacent.  So you're wrong on that one. 

 

Also I wasn't the one who pointed the incident out, though I observed it. At least two other people on my posse and several on yours also observed it. I know because we discussed it. You let the shooter shoot the stage, knowing there was a potential SDQ call and after he shot the stage the discussion between the PM and TO (you I assume) occurred. Nobody around me heard the shooter ask permission and we were feet away. Why would a shooter ask that when all he had to do was put his pistols on the loading table and then go where he wanted too?  I've never heard of a shooter asking permission to take his pistols with him and walk a stage. Even if he had he should have been under the supervision of the TO, which he wasn't. I know for a fact that there wasn't an RO anywhere near the shooter during that time because I was watching him the whole time and discussing with a shooter on my posse if anyone on yours was going to call it.

 

I think it's unfortunate you jumped in and named names as the last thing I wanted was to have this reflect on any person or match. It was an unusual situation and I was curious as to what the appropriate call was. It's even worse that you misrepresent what happened to cover your mistake and throw shade on me. 

 

Shame on you. You dropped the ball on this one, not me.  You made the wrong call and then you broadcast who was involved when nobody needed to know that.

 

edited to add that when the no call was made the reason given was because the shooter had been called up prior to the cease fire, he 'owned' the stage.  No mention of asking permission.  That statement was also heard by multiple people.

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      The shooter did ask permission and was given it to look at the stage while the downrange was called and since there were people downrange the pistols should not and were not touched. The shooter never left the firing line and was watched by the TO the whole time. Being watched by the TO doesn't mean the TO needs to be right next to him. When the range was declared clear the shooter shot the stage. If you have any other questions about what happened I'll be there tomorrow.

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8 hours ago, LASSITER#2080 said:

      The shooter did ask permission and was given it to look at the stage while the downrange was called and since there were people downrange the pistols should not and were not touched. The shooter never left the firing line and was watched by the TO the whole time. Being watched by the TO doesn't mean the TO needs to be right next to him. When the range was declared clear the shooter shot the stage. If you have any other questions about what happened I'll be there tomorrow.

So we can agree that the shooter was walking the firing line with loaded pistols in his holsters and no RO with him.

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I've got my scotch and a cigar, this should be entertaining 

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 So holstered pistols between the loading and unloading table on the firing line are dangerous? 

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9 minutes ago, Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L said:

 So holstered pistols between the loading and unloading table on the firing line are dangerous? 

3. All firearms shall remain unloaded except when under the direct observation of a Range Officer on the firing line or in the loading area. SHB 23

 

37. Competitors shall not leave the designated loading area with a loaded firearm unless they are proceeding to the stage as the next competitor to begin the stage.  SHB 27

 

 

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Still don't see a problem

considering the input from those involved. Can't imagine requiring a TO to shadow a shooter every step of gun staging and pace counting by a shooter. 

 

CR

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Let's see now.......

Observer has a question about a situation that occurred at a shoot......

Did he go over and ask the TO about it...... NO

Did he ask the Posse Marshal to explain the call or lack of call...... NO

Did he go to the Match Director and discuss what was observed..... NO

Did he ask his club TG..... NO

Did he ask the area RO Instructor ....... NO

Did he private message Palewolf..... NO

 

Instead we now have an open "heated" discussion here on the wire.....

Questions about rules is one thing....

Arguing over a call that was made on the range is a totally different matter.

 

 

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Hey Ace, 

 

I did ask both the PM and the TO to explain the call, as did several other shooters. It wasn't explained to my satisfaction.

 

I did go to the MD. He made a decision and explained why. It was a unique situation and I felt he tried to make the best of it. I had no problem with his decision, and as far as the match was concerned it was a done deal to me. As a MD and RO Instructor though I wanted to know what the call should have been.

 

I did not ask my TG because she wasn't there and isn't the best person to ask a rules question

 

I am an RO Instructor and I did ponder the  question and consult my copy of the SHB.

 

After that I did what we've been doing for years, posted a WTC on the wire. I didn't mention names, or any other identifying information. I didn't even mention what call was actually made.

 

I got my answer, thanked PWB, and at that point it was resolved and over as far as I knew. The people involved then jumped in and made it personal, that's when it got heated.

 

Thanks for jumping in and sharing your conclusions!  Trust me I really, really appreciate your comments. When people speak without filters, as many do on the internet, you learn a lot about them, and you've taught me a lot in your post.  

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On July 14, 2017 at 2:19 PM, Captain Bill Burt said:

 Shooter is shooting a stage with a shared firing line with other stages. Shooter's called to the line, but then a ceasefire is called. Shooter goes back to the unloading table and places long guns on the table. Shooter than walks from the unloading table several yards up to the targets with loaded pistols still in holsters. What's the call?

 

Howdy Bill.

 

Gosh, I was at this shoot and somehow, I missed out on this.   So, from an independent view, here is what I was thinking.

 

Because the shooter was called to the line and was moving with their firearms AND THEN the ceasefire is called, the shooter could safely place their long guns in any safe  staging place at that moment.   And because it would be inappropriate for that shooter to take their pistols out of their holsters, they are in essences 'walking the firing line with loaded pistols at the approval of the TO, because they were called to the line.

 

As long as that shooter stayed 'on the firing line' during those circumstances, I can't see where any safety guidelines were broken.

 

I hope you had a safe trip back home.

 

..........Widder

 

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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Hey Ace, 

 

I did ask both the PM and the TO to explain the call, as did several other shooters. It wasn't explained to my satisfaction.

 

I did go to the MD. He made a decision and explained why. It was a unique situation and I felt he tried to make the best of it. I had no problem with his decision, and as far as the match was concerned it was a done deal to me. As a MD and RO Instructor though I wanted to know what the call should have been.

 

I did not ask my TG because she wasn't there and isn't the best person to ask a rules question

 

I am an RO Instructor and I did ponder the  question and consult my copy of the SHB.

 

After that I did what we've been doing for years, posted a WTC on the wire. I didn't mention names, or any other identifying information. I didn't even mention what call was actually made.

 

I got my answer, thanked PWB, and at that point it was resolved and over as far as I knew. The people involved then jumped in and made it personal, that's when it got heated.

 

Thanks for jumping in and sharing your conclusions!  Trust me I really, really appreciate your comments. When people speak without filters, as many do on the internet, you learn a lot about them, and you've taught me a lot in your post.  

Bill, had your initial interpretation of the event occurred as you described in the OP then your call would make sense. I don't want to be argumentative, but it seems that what you thought you saw was not what actually occurred. Happens to all of us from time to time. 

 

CR

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 Hi Widder, thank you for a post that addresses the substance of the issue rather than being merely  a personal attack.  The argument you present is very close to what others on the spot presented.  Please consider the following: shooter placed his loaded long guns on the loading table, prior to the cold range going into effect (shotgun target had to be fixed).  He had the opportunity at that time to also place his pistols on the loading table.  In my opinion that's what he should've done if he wanted to  subsequently leave the loading table.

 

 The fact that he had previously been called to the stage does not in my view negate shooters handbook page 27 item 37 which states that the shooter may not proceed to the firing line with loaded guns unless they are the next competitor doing so to begin the stage, which he clearly was not since he left his long guns on the loading table.

 

Also does a TO have the authority to tell a shooter he can violate SASS rules?  If you accidentally cock a revolver at the wrong time can you ask for and receive permission to move with a cocked gun?

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10 minutes ago, Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L said:

Bill, had your initial interpretation of the event occurred as you described in the OP then your call would make sense. I don't want to be argumentative, but it seems that what you thought you saw was not what actually occurred. Happens to all of us from time to time. 

 

CR

 Thank you for your response Rick! It's certainly possible that I saw things incorrectly but if so, so did at least have a dozen other people.  Because of person involved people were hesitant to speak up.

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Asked and answered. Closing at OP request.

 

There is absolutely no need for sarcasm and personal comments in a WTC thread.

 

I assure you, I don't remember every rule in its entirety every time nor every clarification. If any of you do, your memory is better than mine or your name is PaleWolf Brunelle. ;).

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