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What the SASS Minimum BP Smoke Cloud Looks Like


J-BAR #18287

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On 7/14/2017 at 1:26 PM, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

I was able to identify the APP loads by the white streamers.  Real BP makes very nice flames while some subs do not.  On the range I can detect Pyrodex and Triple Seven by their smell.

 

Do you think this is APP???  :D

 

 

Look_Downrange.JPG

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To eliminate subjective judgement calls and to maintain adherence to historical standards, the answer is simple!  Change the rules so that anyone who declares an FC category must make all ammo available to the Match Director who will then randomly select one round and open it with a bullet puller.  If anything other than black powder comes out, the shooter is moved to a non-FC category appropriate tot he shooter's shooting style. 

 

:D

 

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9 minutes ago, JohnHenryQuick said:

To eliminate subjective judgement calls and to maintain adherence to historical standards, the answer is simple!  Change the rules so that anyone who declares an FC category must make all ammo available to the Match Director who will then randomly select one round and open it with a bullet puller.  If anything other than black powder comes out, the shooter is moved to a non-FC category appropriate tot he shooter's shooting style. 

 

:D

 

 

How do you tell BP / subs from fillers?  Don't say by the color.

 

Many shooters use fillers and still have more than one CC of propellant in their cases. How do you separate the filler from the powder?

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45 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

How do you tell BP / subs from fillers?  Don't say by the color.

 

Many shooters use fillers and still have more than one CC of propellant in their cases. How do you separate the filler from the powder?

 

Excellent question!  I never thought about a filler being the same color as the powder.  I've seen people use cornmeal, grits (and I hear flour which BTW does burn and is not allowed by any reenacting umbrella organization I know of), but I've never seen anyone use a filler meant to blend in color-wise.

 

A full case is kind of the point with one CC being a useless number.  In my fantasy world that's never going to come true, anyone who shoots a smaller caliber to avoid recoil is then risking not being heard by the spotters, so it balances out.  Of course it's not perfect, but at least it's not a completely subjective standard.

 

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Many rules are subjective. Before the BP Smoke rule was added, there was no requiement that a shooter in a BP category was required to produce smoke. Many ideas were considered, but the idea of having three experienced observers make the judgement on a challenged shooter was the easiest. Requiring all BP shooters to use a full case of BP works for small cartridges, but can be a bit much and over kill for some of the larger calibers. Yes, I know that some folks do it, but that is their choice. The Standard has largely done away with the lack of smoke in the BP catrgories. 

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When  the "test" is done because of a challenge, it is side-by-side with the same wind, humidity, etc. and the people doing the observation spread out to get views from different perspectives.   Sadly, the BP shooters needed to lobby to have a smoke standard put in place.  We were seeing people "cherry-picking" a BP category at major matches.  I actually saw this myself.  We were in a pretty humid part of the country and the posse actually thought the shooter was listed in error in a BP category as there wasn't any smoke to speak of.  Those of us using BP were literally filling the bay, choking the posse and ducking and bobbing to find the targets.  He was doing a shoot-through and came to our bay.  He just blew through without a hitch or hint of smoke like a Smokeless One.   We were horrified to find out he was really in a BP category.  I hope he loves that 1st place buckle.  There was nothing we could do about it as the rules were silent on this issue. 

In my observations, 1 cc of pretty much anything will make standard no matter what bullet and lube you use.  It's not complicated and it's not going to make a heavy load or place an undue burden on anybody.  It's a very minimal standard.  My dear pard Driftwood was instrumental in helping to craft the standard, with a lot of input from other BP shooters.  The basic idea is that you should be able to tell just by looking that you have a BP shooter, not a Smokeless One.

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46 minutes ago, Lou Graham, # 26112 said:

When  the "test" is done because of a challenge, it is side-by-side with the same wind, humidity, etc. and the people doing the observation spread out to get views from different perspectives.   Sadly, the BP shooters needed to lobby to have a smoke standard put in place.  We were seeing people "cherry-picking" a BP category at major matches.  I actually saw this myself.  We were in a pretty humid part of the country and the posse actually thought the shooter was listed in error in a BP category as there wasn't any smoke to speak of.  Those of us using BP were literally filling the bay, choking the posse and ducking and bobbing to find the targets.  He was doing a shoot-through and came to our bay.  He just blew through without a hitch or hint of smoke like a Smokeless One.   We were horrified to find out he was really in a BP category.  I hope he loves that 1st place buckle.  There was nothing we could do about it as the rules were silent on this issue. 

In my observations, 1 cc of pretty much anything will make standard no matter what bullet and lube you use.  It's not complicated and it's not going to make a heavy load or place an undue burden on anybody.  It's a very minimal standard.  My dear pard Driftwood was instrumental in helping to craft the standard, with a lot of input from other BP shooters.  The basic idea is that you should be able to tell just by looking that you have a BP shooter, not a Smokeless One.

 

Unfortunately, I have seen the same thing.

 

All matches begin with a Pledge of Allegiance, Yee-Haw!, and a safety meeting including review of local rules.  It seems to me that it would not be much trouble for the Match Director to fire off a few of the minimum standard cartridges and announce, "OK that is what the minimum black powder cloud looks like in today's conditions."

 

It would serve to calibrate all the shooters so that frivolous challenges might be avoided.  And it serves notice to those who might need it that the club is willing and able to enforce the minimum smoke requirement.

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On 7/14/2017 at 1:26 PM, Jefro, SASS#69420 said:

... If you gotta worry about making the minimum standard then BP shooting probably ain't for you.;)

 

Just what I was thinking...

 

 

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15 hours ago, JohnHenryQuick said:

To eliminate subjective judgement calls and to maintain adherence to historical standards, the answer is simple!  Change the rules so that anyone who declares an FC category must make all ammo available to the Match Director who will then randomly select one round and open it with a bullet puller.  If anything other than black powder comes out, the shooter is moved to a non-FC category appropriate tot he shooter's shooting style. 

 

:D

 

Historical standards?? What would be the purpose of this banning the use of Subs in FC? I have seen more than a couple people here on the wire comment that they shoot Subs in FC due to various state / local ordinances prohibiting or restricting black powder use and storage where they are located. Taking Subs out of play would seem to penalize fellow FC competitors that have little other choice!  Using this "historical standard", the next issue arising will be when someone has coated bullets or they aren't using "historical" balloon head cases. Believe me when I say that the FC and Frontiersman using Subs in this area make plenty of smoke. Gosh, I'm not so sure those shooting .38 special caliber 73 rifles would meet that "historical standard" either! I respect your loyalty to the category as well as the holy black, but there are many people in the game, therefore many choices to meet the criteria! Yes, I have used the holy black in FC ....and subs. 

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4 hours ago, Captain Clark said:

Historical standards?? What would be the purpose of this banning the use of Subs in FC? I have seen more than a couple people here on the wire comment that they shoot Subs in FC due to various state / local ordinances prohibiting or restricting black powder use and storage where they are located. Taking Subs out of play would seem to penalize fellow FC competitors that have little other choice!  Using this "historical standard", the next issue arising will be when someone has coated bullets or they aren't using "historical" balloon head cases. Believe me when I say that the FC and Frontiersman using Subs in this area make plenty of smoke. Gosh, I'm not so sure those shooting .38 special caliber 73 rifles would meet that "historical standard" either! I respect your loyalty to the category as well as the holy black, but there are many people in the game, therefore many choices to meet the criteria! Yes, I have used the holy black in FC ....and subs. 

 

My apologies if I was not clear, but this was not about real black powder v. subs.  it was about the use of fillers to minimize the recoil of large caliber handguns and the completely subjective 1.0 CC standard.  IMHO, no human being can look at a cloud of smoke and verify that someone is meeting the standard, particularly if there is any breeze at all.  I shoot compressed full loads of GOEX - loads that some would call Warthogs -  and there are days when there is just enough breeze that even my loads don't look much different than smokeless.

 

When I said "historical" I meant that I have never seen black powder ammo that was advertised as "low recoil" or "low powder" so that shooters could shoot faster.  Maybe someone like Driftwood knows of some examples, but I have never seen them and even if they did exist, is there any evidence that they were in common use?

 

While I know it will never happen, if the standard was a full case of powder and the test was pulling a bullet, the standard would be objective rather than subjective.  I applaud J-Bar's effort in making that video, but when you look at the clouds of smoke he was making, are you CERTAIN that there weren't any that were actually 0.9 CC just by looking at the cloud?  Could any of them have been 1.1 CC?  I assume that J-Bar was quite diligent, but anyone who says they can spot the difference by looking at the cloud is..., well..., blowing smoke. 

 

I've shot subs and I don't care if anyone else does.  Why anyone would want to make smoke and yet miss out on the sparks, the flames, the sound and the smell of the real thing is beyond me, but if that is your choice, then so be it.

 

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Here is a video I uploaded to YouTube of just me and Sawmill Mary shooting at last match.  I'm shooting Smoke Wagon Deluxe 44WCF with about a half charge of BlackMZ and secret filler with 160g Badman Bullet.  You can see there is plenty of power from the recoil and smoke.  We have a couple of guys that shoot full case loads of real black powder in 38WCF that remark on how much smoke my BlackMZ loads produce. 

 

Mary is shooting loads with TiteGroup in 38 Short Colt in pistols and 357 in rifle.  Still a lot of smoke that I assume is mostly the bullet lube. I bought her some polymer coated bullets to try to reduce smoke an she's a nonsmoker. 

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9 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

 

Here is a video I uploaded to YouTube of just me and Sawmill Mary shooting at last match.  I'm shooting Smoke Wagon Deluxe 44WCF with about a half charge of BlackMZ and secret filler with 160g Badman Bullet.  You can see there is plenty of power from the recoil and smoke.  We have a couple of guys that shoot full case loads of real black powder in 38WCF that remark on how much smoke my BlackMZ loads produce. 

 

Mary is shooting loads with TiteGroup in 38 Short Colt in pistols and 357 in rifle.  Still a lot of smoke that I assume is mostly the bullet lube. I bought her some polymer coated bullets to try to reduce smoke an she's a nonsmoker. 

I use quite a bit more powder than that and a much bigger bullet, yet I think you are producing more smoke than I do. I might have to try some of this BlackMZ. Maybe for the state BP match. I want to win the coveted "most smoke" award and I can't seem to fit any more powder in my cases.

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1 minute ago, Redwood Kid said:

I use quite a bit more powder than that and a much bigger bullet, yet I think you are producing more smoke than I do. I might have to try some of this BlackMZ. Maybe for the state BP match. I want to win the coveted "most smoke" award and I can't seem to fit any more powder in my cases.

Maybe it is the filler and not the powder that is making all that smoke.  He did say he was using super duper top secret filler.

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I was at the Nevada City Peacemakers monthly shoot this last Saturday and took some photos.  Here is Bounty Hunter letting his old SxS give a nice BP belch!

BountyHunter.thumb.jpg.27ec4a4a9b4c077878207af57161f3fe.jpg

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This is great work!  A training video for ROs.  A should watch for new BP shooters.  I vote to make this a sticky!  Too bad video links can't be added to the chronicle.

 

J-Bar, thanks for the effort.  But, I didn't hear one ding? :) 

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7 hours ago, Tucker McNeely said:

 

 

J-Bar, thanks for the effort.  But, I didn't hear one ding? :) 

 

Poor kid, getting as deaf as I am.  B)

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Great Job J-Bar. Thanks so much for the hard work and dedication to FC .

FLAMESSMOKE, & BOOis what it's all about !!!!!!!

 

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On 7/14/2017 at 4:41 PM, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

"I did not want to be accused of trying to show folks what they could get away with!! "...EXCELLENT REASON and good point.

 

"It is my understanding that at the time the recipe for the minimum load was established, a commercial ammunition company was going to supply "standard loads" to SASS clubs nationwide to be used to settle challenges  For reasons beyond my knowledge that never happened.."  I BELIEVE THAT COMPANY SOLD AND NEW OWNERS DID NOT GET INVOLVED IN FURNISHING THE STANDARD. 

 

 

thanks for the footage, components involved, and time.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/17/2017 at 5:53 AM, JohnHenryQuick said:

 

My apologies if I was not clear, but this was not about real black powder v. subs.  it was about the use of fillers to minimize the recoil of large caliber handguns and the completely subjective 1.0 CC standard.  IMHO, no human being can look at a cloud of smoke and verify that someone is meeting the standard, particularly if there is any breeze at all.  I shoot compressed full loads of GOEX - loads that some would call Warthogs -  and there are days when there is just enough breeze that even my loads don't look much different than smokeless.

 

When I said "historical" I meant that I have never seen black powder ammo that was advertised as "low recoil" or "low powder" so that shooters could shoot faster.  Maybe someone like Driftwood knows of some examples, but I have never seen them and even if they did exist, is there any evidence that they were in common use?

 

While I know it will never happen, if the standard was a full case of powder and the test was pulling a bullet, the standard would be objective rather than subjective.  I applaud J-Bar's effort in making that video, but when you look at the clouds of smoke he was making, are you CERTAIN that there weren't any that were actually 0.9 CC just by looking at the cloud?  Could any of them have been 1.1 CC?  I assume that J-Bar was quite diligent, but anyone who says they can spot the difference by looking at the cloud is..., well..., blowing smoke. 

 

I've shot subs and I don't care if anyone else does.  Why anyone would want to make smoke and yet miss out on the sparks, the flames, the sound and the smell of the real thing is beyond me, but if that is your choice, then so be it.

 

JHQ , I agree; 

I've shot subs and I don't care if anyone else does.  Why anyone would want to make smoke and yet miss out on the sparks, the flames, the sound and the smell of the real thing is beyond me, but if that is your choice, then so be it. 

 .

FLAMESSMOKE, & BOOis what it's all about !!!!!!!

 

 
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Nicely done I believe the more smoke and flames the more fun. Hearing the ro and spotters coughing behind me if the wind is right always makes me smile.

 

Short Stack 

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I have not seen anyone challenge smoke at any of the Northeast, New York, PA or MD matches as well as Fire & Ice and Winter Range. Hate to see it become an item of contention. 

 

I use 1.3 cc of APP or 3F Black under a 1/2 inch wad in my 45 colts or 44-40's most of the time.  Once In a while at local matches I go full case. 

 

Video is 1.3 cc of 3 f.APP with 200 gr lead in 44-40. Note smoke from behind tough to see target, but from side not so bad. 

 

 

 

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