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What the SASS Minimum BP Smoke Cloud Looks Like


J-BAR #18287

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About a week ago there was a thread on the Wire in which the topic of making enough smoke in a black powder category was discussed.  Since SASS has not yet supplied local clubs with "Minimum Standard Load" cartridges to use in challenges, some folks don't really know what the minimum smoke requirement looks like.  In that thread I said I would make a video so match officials could have some kind of image in their minds in case a challenge arose during a match.  I have posted the video to YouTube and here is the link.

 

It is important to remember that I did this on my own.  I have not been authorized by SASS or the Rules Committee to make this video.  I offer it simply in an effort to provide a reference in the absence of an official reference.  And even though it was a hot day, I got to have some fun at the range! :D

 

 

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J-BAR:

     All I can say is...5968e1aa2082e_JawDrop-Aladdin-RESIZED.jpg.e4e7c1d7d065c030f47cdc354d844843.jpg ..AWESOME!

     Can't tell you how appreciative I am that you took your time to create this video, which wasn't easy. The attention to detail is superb.

     Thank you for your hard work on this. :D

     Although I do not currently shoot BP, one day I will (Amarillo Rattler has shown me how it's done :o) and those that currently do shoot BP should appreciate this as well.

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You call that fast!  Just Kidding, it is much faster than I shoot!  Thanks for taking the time to make the video and then sharing it with us!  Cowboy Way for sure!

 

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I applaud your effort but all of the examples you show are in pretty nice weather conditions with only a slight breeze.

I'm sure you're aware, but I doubt that everyone is....

The visible amount of smoke will change substantially depending on weather conditions.... 

Especially humidity and wind....  even the position of the sun can make a difference.

 

I'm always praying for the wind to come up when I go to the Line...... B)

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14 minutes ago, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

Will this do? 

 

MORE SMOKE!   (yep, that's what we're talking about  :lol::wub:)

Good luck, GJ

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OK, trivia question ...

Who established and recommended the BP smoke standard to SASS, approved by the TG's?

PS: Badge numbers 50,000 and below ... please don't vote to determine if the later members know :D

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A few years ago I shot a state shoot with BP.  Loads were a full case of BP in .45 Colt topped off with a 250 grain bullet.  No question about the smoke standard.  Shooters following me complained loudly because the shoot days were windless and the bays tended to contain the smoke.  Great fun!

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56 minutes ago, Silver Sam, SASS #34718L said:

 

I'm always praying for the wind to come up when I go to the Line...... B)

Not me, I like it calm and overcast with about a 50' ceiling:ph34r: Shot in Ky. one time when it was like that, after the 1st or 2nd round you were bobbing  and weaving and waiting to find the other targets, it was great!!:D If you gotta worry about making the minimum standard then BP shooting probably ain't for you.;)

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I was able to identify the APP loads by the white streamers.  Real BP makes very nice flames while some subs do not.  On the range I can detect Pyrodex and Triple Seven by their smell.

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1 hour ago, John Boy said:

OK, trivia question ...

Who established and recommended the BP smoke standard to SASS, approved by the TG's?

PS: Badge numbers 50,000 and below ... please don't vote to determine if the later members know :D

I believe Billy Boots was involved.

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57 minutes ago, Jefro, SASS#69420 said:

Not me, I like it calm and overcast with about a 50' ceiling:ph34r: Shot in Ky. one time when it was like that, after the 1st or 2nd round you were bobbing  and weaving and waiting to find the other targets, it was great!!:DIf you gotta worry about making the minimum standard then BP shooting probably ain't for you.;)

 

+1000

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1 hour ago, Jefro, SASS#69420 said:

Not me, I like it calm and overcast with about a 50' ceiling:ph34r: Shot in Ky. one time when it was like that, after the 1st or 2nd round you were bobbing  and weaving and waiting to find the other targets, it was great!!:D If you gotta worry about making the minimum standard then BP shooting probably ain't for you.;)

Several times when I was all ready to go with BP for a monthly match, then checked the weather report and see it is going to be very windy, so I switched to smokeless for the day.  If you can't get the posse coughing and hacking then it just ain't as much fun.

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2 hours ago, John Boy said:

Who established and recommended the BP smoke standard to SASS

And believe that person may also have contributed "Shall have to contend with smoke obscured targets"  :lol:

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17 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

And believe that person may also have contributed "Shall have to contend with smoke obscured targets"

 

I wrote that. More specifically, I wrote It is expected that the blackpowder competitor shall contend with smoke obscured targets

 

I wrote more than that, but that's how much wound up in the standard.

 

I did not have anything to do with establishing the standard load.

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nice worK!!  he was on the ROC the same time I was,,,,,  did a lot of comparison work too, but it all got lost somewhere,,

 

most impressive vid!!

 

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The SASS standard is a subjective comparison of the standard load to the test load.

 

Did you observe any of your test loads that fell below the standard load?

 

Thanks for the contribution,

Amarillo Rattler

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+1 to AR's comments.

 

It would NOT be acceptable in a match to compare a shooter's smoke to a video, a photo, or anything besides a SASS standard smoke load shot at the same time and conditions and judged by folks who have lots of experience with SASS matches, for the purpose of deciding if the shooter should be penalized.

 

It would also not be acceptable to "just guess."   A direct comparison is required to make a call.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Good video.  The problem with smoke is that it is subjective and what is seen depends on where the spotter is standing, the angle of the sun, direction of the sun, etc.  I have photos where I stood on the left of the shooter and it appeared there was little if any smoke.  Move to the right side and take another photo and you can hardly see anything because of the smoke.  That is why there are generally more than one spotter on the test.  You need one on each side and someone behind the shooter.  It is amazing how much difference a few feet can make in the apparent amount of smoke.

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3 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Good video.  The problem with smoke is that it is subjective and what is seen depends on where the spotter is standing, the angle of the sun, direction of the sun, etc.  I have photos where I stood on the left of the shooter and it appeared there was little if any smoke.  Move to the right side and take another photo and you can hardly see anything because of the smoke.  That is why there are generally more than one spotter on the test.  You need one on each side and someone behind the shooter.  It is amazing how much difference a few feet can make in the apparent amount of smoke.

I prefer all three of my spotters to stand directly behind me and call misses by sight only! Remember if you think it's a miss it's a hit!B)

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15 minutes ago, Cheatin Charlie said:

I prefer all three of my spotters to stand directly behind me and call misses by sight only! Remember if you think it's a miss it's a hit!B)

This is why I like BP. I watched some spotters confused if I had shot targets out of order. It was only a monthly so I fessed up. They called me clean on the stage before and I had two misses and a P.

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5 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

My personal (NOT an "official ROC ruling") smoke standard:

 

1918375_1201304164475_7326823_n.jpg

 

Certainly makes the minimum flame standard.  :ph34r:

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1 hour ago, Amarillo Rattler said:

The SASS standard is a subjective comparison of the standard load to the test load.

 

Did you observe any of your test loads that fell below the standard load?

 

Thanks for the contribution,

Amarillo Rattler

 

All of the powder charges in the video were 1.0 CC.

 

I did not load less than 1.0 CC because I did not want to be accused of trying to show folks what they could get away with!! 

 

It is my understanding that at the time the recipe for the minimum load was established, a commercial ammunition company was going to supply "standard loads" to SASS clubs nationwide to be used to settle challenges.  For reasons beyond my knowledge that never happened.  So, without standard ammo being on hand during a match, no challenge can presently be investigated.  If the video cannot be used as a guide, then there is no point in having a standard at all, and those who wish to compete in blackpowder categories can load down without fear of consequences.  Light loads may not be common because the vast majority of BP shooters enjoy making smoke.  But over the years I have seen a few competitors using loads I thought were below minimum.  Apparently others have seen it also, otherwise the present standard would not have been established in the first place.

 

I don't have an answer to the situation.  I guess when a nationally ranked and respected shooter feels like he got beat by someone using pipsqueak loads in a major match and he complains loud enough the issue may be addressed.

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Our top Major matches (national and world) do have SASS standard loads, in my understanding.  They certainly have in the past.

Good luck, GJ

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13 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Our top Major matches (national and world) do have SASS standard loads, in my understanding.  They certainly have in the past.

Good luck, GJ

 

Do you know if the challenge process using those loads has ever occurred?

 

For those of us who consider our State level matches to be our major matches, do you know where the standard loads can be obtained?

My online searches have not found any commercial supplier offering a .38 Special cartridge with a 145 grain bullet and Goex powder.

 

 

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J-Bar ;

Thanks fer the Work ,,,, fun ....

If you and I ever shoot together ,,,,, could you check my loads ,,,,,,,,,,,, I use 1.5 cc  upwards to 2.5 cc ... And after the second or third shoot you can't find me ...

On calm days that is .... The 1.5 is used in my .36 CB ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

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There are NO Commercially produced Black Powder Standard loads produce and or approved by SASS, and there NEVER has been. We had some prototype cartridges produced at the time the standard was put into play and they were available at the 2006 EOT, but that avenue never move forward. The case of ammo that came in very quickly disappeared.... I have a couple of the boxes.

 

This is the statement presented to the TGs for the vote in 2005. As you can see, it required the club to see to it that a BP Standard load was built and ready to be used in the case of a challenge.

 

Standard BP test Ammunition, to be added to the ROI course:

 

 

The Standard Ammunition used as a reference should be assembled and on hand before the match. All caliber “Standards” shall be loaded with 1cc of real Black Powder and appropriate filler. Test have proven that the standard ammunition in each caliber produced approximately the same amount of smoke, however, it is suggested that as many caliber “Standards” as possible be on hand.

 

I suggest that everyone take a look at the RO II course for some guidance on the use of the BP Standard load.

There have indeed been cases where a shooter's smoke has been challenged... at EOT if fact.

Judging the amount of smoke is of course subjective. we always knew it was, but it WILL and DID put an end to the guys shooting in the BP categories that were NOT producing smoke, and it WILL continue to work if it is applied. There is NOBODY shooting in the BP category dumb enough to risk it if they know that their lack of smoke WILL BE CHALLENGED. The standard is there, it works. Since it was put into play, I have not seen any BP shooters that were not producing smoke. Before the standard, there was NO REQUIREMENT WHAT SO EVER that a shooter in a BP category had to produce smoke. That is no longer the case.

 

Snakebite

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6 hours ago, Silver Sam, SASS #34718L said:

I applaud your effort but all of the examples you show are in pretty nice weather conditions with only a slight breeze.

I'm sure you're aware, but I doubt that everyone is....

The visible amount of smoke will change substantially depending on weather conditions.... 

Especially humidity and wind....  even the position of the sun can make a difference.

 

I'm always praying for the wind to come up when I go to the Line...... B)

 

"Applauding" someone's efforts is, generally, a prelude to criticizing those efforts and is not congratulatory "applause" at all.   Hardly a nice thing to do under these circumstances, but possibly acceptable in a competitive business environment, which this ain't.

 

This demonstration, under almost ideal conditions, is easily extrapolated to windy conditions, to still, inversion-like high humidity conditions, and to other conditions as well.

 

This demo video is pretty wonderful, I think, and should be saved to use as a training aid and as a reminder.

 

Cat Brules

 

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