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Rossi 92 vs Marlin 1894


lone_ranger674

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32 minutes ago, Roscoe Regulator said:

I expect the choice of 38 Special, loaded light, has a lot more to do with staying on target between shots than it does cost per round. It should make a lot more difference for someone who doesn't reload. However, 45 Colt with lead bullets is probably more common in local shops than 38 Special lead. I wonder if one could be more competitive with the .40+ guns, if competing in Classic Cowboy with all the other big bores. If a custom load was mild enough, it probably wouldn't make a significant difference compared to 38 (or mild 357). I wonder

Roscoe, he wants a .45 for Wild Bunch and he already has at least 1 revolver in .45. Also, WB has a power factor that must be met and loading different rounds for different classes may be an issue.

 

2 minutes ago, Rex M Rugers #6621 said:

I have a hard time with the 92 ; just doesn't fit right. When I shoulder it the sights are not right in line

Rex, I recently discovered, after it was pointed out to me, that I hunker down on the sights of my 92. Something just didn't feel right but I just kept blazing away. Turns out the crescent buttstock and I really don't match up. I will probably be restocking the rifle this winter with a shotgun butt style.

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21 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Roscoe, he wants a .45 for Wild Bunch and he already has at least 1 revolver in .45. Also, WB has a power factor that must be met and loading different rounds for different classes may be an issue.

Yes, I read that, but he was only "thinking about" WB and may just be digging a deeper hole by trying to include the existing 45 Colt revolver. Thus the suggestions to consider 38/357 and then more likely a Win 73 than a Marlin 94.

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A Rossi '92 can be made into an excellent gun for this game, and at a fraction of the cost of a JM Marlin.  You may want to consider going with one in 44-40, as that will eliminate the blowback issues of the 45 Colt.  Also a rifle in 44-40 paired with revolvers in 45 Colt would correctly emulate what would have been carried back then. 

 

If you do get a '92 be sure to at least get Steve Young's video on how to set one up for CAS.  A better choice would be to either buy one already set up from him, or arrange to send yours to him.  I have done both and it is the best money I have ever spent on a gun.

 

Do not let people scare you off from a '92 with "a '92 is not as fast as a '73" crap.  Only less than 10% of shooters are able to outrun a properly set up '92.

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31 minutes ago, Tracker Jack Daniels, 58780 said:

Do not let people scare you off from a '92 with "a '92 is not as fast as a '73" crap.  Only less than 10% of shooters are able to outrun a properly set up '92.

A properly set up 92 is NOT as fast as a properly set up 73.  PERIOD.

 

Where this 10% statistic came from, I have no idea. 

But the supposed requirement that the shooter needs to be able "outrun the gun" before a better gun benefits them is just plain silly.

 

The tuned and short stroked 73 has a measurable and repeatable mechanical advantage over the 92.

To say or claim otherwise is disingenuous and misleading.

 

This is akin to stating that only 10% of drivers can out drive all the performance of a Kia Soul (which is probably true).

And then stating that because of this above stipulation; a Camaro Z28 will offer them no SPEED advantage.

 

Regardless of the skill level of the driver; in the faster car, the same driver will most likely be faster.

The Camaro driven at 50% of it's potential is still faster than the Kia driven at 80% of its potential.

 

Regardless of skill level, a shooter will likely be faster with a faster gun.

 

There is zero need to be able to outrun a given gun before graduating to a superior firearm. 

Better and faster is better and faster. 

To say or imply otherwise is doing shooters a disservice.

 

 

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The marlin would be the best choice out those two options both are bee stern legal and not legal for classic cowboy the 92 will limit how fast you can shoot it.  Themarlin will go as fast as you can manipulate it.  They are both a secondary choice for this game the toggle link Winchesters are the leaders because how fast they can be made to go.

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Tuned Right .

The 92 will Operate as fast as you can cycle it also .

Before short stroke kits .

The 92 was the number one rifle and world champion.

Just sayin.

Rooster .

 

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2 hours ago, Rooster Ron Wayne said:

Tuned Right .

The 92 will Operate as fast as you can cycle it also .

Before short stroke kits .

The 92 was the number one rifle and world champion.

Just sayin.

Rooster .

 

+1,  Most shooters cannot out run a properly tuned and set up '92.  Creeker, I never said that a '92 was as fast as a toggle link rifle.  I was relaying the facts as told to me by a couple very good cowboy gunsmiths and top shooters.  The OP was asking for opinions on a choice between a '02 and a Marlin, never asked about a toggle link gun; so I was just giving him the benefit of what I have learned over the past 15 years of shooting '92s.  There was no need to get snarkey!

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92's were so much faster than early uberti 73s [before all the rule changes that let you do whatever] that discussion was often on whether they should be allowed to compete against the " more authentic" earlier designs. So it all comes around. The Marlins took over next and for many years now with the mods SASS allows a 73 or 66 is going to mostly run faster than anything in equal hands. I have all of them including the 1860. I like my 66 most of the time but my go to rifle for teaching lever gun at the Sheriff's range or private class is a 92. The 92 carbine is strong, light, and can shoot very accurately, much more accurately and with heavier loads than you'll need for SASS. I've been setting up 92's for most of my life and find them an excellent all around gun that is easy to maintain if you spend a little time getting to know it. In early cas years I used to spend an hour before or after matches demonstrating the disassembly/reassembly of 92's, 97's 73's, marlins etc but now you have the internet you tube so you can do it at home. No reason to be afraid of the 92.

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On ‎6‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 5:49 PM, JohnHenryQuick said:

 

Why do you say "unfortunately?"  I've never had a 92 or a Marlin, so I can't compare, but I love my Codymatic 73 and I see nothing unfortunate about it.  ;)

I can only guess why he said it but for me. It's the fact that parts are hard to find and the quality isn't up to what you saw form older American made guns and we just wish for better options.

 

If you get a clone rifle from a good gunsmith and don't push it too hard it will last a long time. But it's the gunsmith that has to weed out inferior parts and tune it so you can enjoy it and it's hit & miss many times.

 

Granted these replica rifle were never to be shot like we do and they have made advancements for us as well so kudo's for that but the rifle is the weak link heavy maintenance item in SASS and the harder you run one the more upkeep is required.

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8 hours ago, Tracker Jack Daniels, 58780 said:

+1,  Most shooters cannot out run a properly tuned and set up '92.  Creeker, I never said that a '92 was as fast as a toggle link rifle.  I was relaying the facts as told to me by a couple very good cowboy gunsmiths and top shooters.  The OP was asking for opinions on a choice between a '02 and a Marlin, never asked about a toggle link gun; so I was just giving him the benefit of what I have learned over the past 15 years of shooting '92s.  There was no need to get snarkey!

I apologize for my rudeness or snark.  

 My issue was with (in my opinion), failing to provide all pertinent information. 

Which, (in my opinion), could lead a shooter toward believing something that is not completely accurate.

 

The 92 is a fine firearm, better than a Marlin or 73 in a number of ways.

Strength of action, price of purchase and probably more.

Many, many cowboy shooters began with a 92 rifle.  And many championships have been won by shooters using 92 rifles. 

And perhaps there were even debates years ago of whether the 92 was unfair against other designs.

 

And yes, I have also heard the argument that most shooters cannot out run a 92; so a "faster" gun is not needed and a waste of money.

 

So let's look at this logically.

Above these posts is a video of Deuce running a 92... 

I think we can all agree that whatever time Deuce can get out the gun is about as good as any mere mortal is going to do?

 

I didn't see a timer in the video, so I don't know for sure, but I'm thinking that run was about 2.3 for 10 rounds?

 

Now, Deuces current speed run for rifle is what? 1.57?  (with a Marlin)Again, about as fast as anyone is going to do it.

 

The Marlin is about 40% faster than the 92.

 

So since the only variable is the equipment; I am forced to believe the difference in time is solely a factor of the equipment.

 

Obviously it doesn't mean that 10 second rifle shooters will become Deuce by changing equipment. 

But a 40% advantage is 40% and while it may improve a slower shooter 40%, it may improve that 10 second shooter to 8 or 7.5. 

And to imply that they will not improve with faster equipment is (in my opinion) not providing all the information required to make an informed decision.

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20 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

A properly set up 92 is NOT as fast as a properly set up 73.  PERIOD.

 

Where this 10% statistic came from, I have no idea. 

But the supposed requirement that the shooter needs to be able "outrun the gun" before a better gun benefits them is just plain silly.

 

The tuned and short stroked 73 has a measurable and repeatable mechanical advantage over the 92.

To say or claim otherwise is disingenuous and misleading.

 

This is akin to stating that only 10% of drivers can out drive all the performance of a Kia Soul (which is probably true).

And then stating that because of this above stipulation; a Camaro Z28 will offer them no SPEED advantage.

 

Regardless of the skill level of the driver; in the faster car, the same driver will most likely be faster.

The Camaro driven at 50% of it's potential is still faster than the Kia driven at 80% of its potential.

 

Regardless of skill level, a shooter will likely be faster with a faster gun.

 

There is zero need to be able to outrun a given gun before graduating to a superior firearm. 

Better and faster is better and faster. 

To say or imply otherwise is doing shooters a disservice.

 

 

If the 73 is such a superior firearm then I guess that JMB wasted his time and talent inventing the 1892

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8 minutes ago, Henry T Harrison said:

If the 73 is such a superior firearm then I guess that JMB wasted his time and talent inventing the 92

 

Superiority is always based on the criteria presented.

If your criteria is off roading; a Jeep Wrangler is much superior to a Corvette.

If it is high speed straight line and back road sweepers; the Corvette is far superior.

If you want to shoot 454 Casull thru your pistol caliber carbine - you want a 92.

If your criteria is a low cost of purchase - you want a 92.

But for the purposes of Cowboy Action Shooting...

Find me ANYONE that believes the 92 is superior or even close to the 73 for the purposes of OUR GAME.

Anyone that says so is being deliberately obtuse to the realities of OUR GAME.

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Hey everyone I didn't mean to start any fights.  To clarify more.  I will be getting into Wild Bunch shooting at some point.  Its expensive to get started in the sport so I am trying to get myself a decent starter set together and can always upgrade later.  It seems the Rossi or the Marlin are the starting point.  As far as the Marlin is concerned I haven't had much luck finding a used one.  So odds are I would get a new one especially because they have a rebate right now. I would also order the Marlin online vs being about to get the Rossi locally.

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my 92 will handle 45colt "ruger only" loads, which i intend on using for the long range shoots... you would destroy a 73 with anything hotter than the typical "cowboy" mouse fart loads...

 

granddad used to always say "beware of the one gun man" the rossi 92 is that one gun...

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On 7/1/2017 at 7:31 AM, Roscoe Regulator said:

I expect the choice of 38 Special, loaded light, has a lot more to do with staying on target between shots than it does cost per round. It should make a lot more difference for someone who doesn't reload. However, 45 Colt with lead bullets is probably more common in local shops than 38 Special lead. I wonder if one could be more competitive with the .40+ guns, if competing in Classic Cowboy with all the other big bores. If a custom load was mild enough, it probably wouldn't make a significant difference compared to 38 (or mild 357). I wonder

The caliber difference in rifle really does not effect speed. My 44-40 will keep up with any .38 out there. 

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LR674 it appears you have settled on a '92 and might use it for hunting.  Rossi sells these in stainless steel.  Since you might be hunting in the rain why not get a weather resistant model?

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3 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

LR674 it appears you have settled on a '92 and might use it for hunting.  Rossi sells these in stainless steel.  Since you might be hunting in the rain why not get a weather resistant model?

Haven't decided for sure.  There has been alot of great advice throw out so far.  This is also a really great idea. 

 

Just now, Smokestack said:

If I were going to buy a '92 in .45, I would look into the .454 casull that way when you upgrade your SASS rifle to a Marlin or .73, your '92 will still be cool. 

Also a really great idea

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22 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

A properly set up 92 is NOT as fast as a properly set up 73.  PERIOD.

 

Where this 10% statistic came from, I have no idea. 

But the supposed requirement that the shooter needs to be able "outrun the gun" before a better gun benefits them is just plain silly.

 

The tuned and short stroked 73 has a measurable and repeatable mechanical advantage over the 92.

To say or claim otherwise is disingenuous and misleading.

 

This is akin to stating that only 10% of drivers can out drive all the performance of a Kia Soul (which is probably true).

And then stating that because of this above stipulation; a Camaro Z28 will offer them no SPEED advantage.

 

Regardless of the skill level of the driver; in the faster car, the same driver will most likely be faster.

The Camaro driven at 50% of it's potential is still faster than the Kia driven at 80% of its potential.

 

Regardless of skill level, a shooter will likely be faster with a faster gun.

 

There is zero need to be able to outrun a given gun before graduating to a superior firearm. 

Better and faster is better and faster. 

To say or imply otherwise is doing shooters a disservice.

 

 

 

Hmmm...

 

 

I unerstand your point.  

Therefore I will recommend that everyone get an AWA USA Lightning in .45 Colt.   Afterall, I am faster with it, than any of my others guns.  (Henry, 66, 73, and 92's depending on my mood.)  It is also the only gun I have ever shot a clean match with, and that was at End of the Trail!

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I started with a navy arms 92 in 357 then got a Henry big boy In 45 colt then came a 73 in 45 colt a marlin in 45 colt then several more 73s a marlin 38 spc still waiting to replace the 92 down the road.

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If you are new to this game, it will a while before you are running stage times in the teens.  A Rossi 92 can serve a new shooter pretty well, be a decent backup for an experienced shooter and is a good field fun.  Finding a JM Marlin in your uncle's closer might happen, but the Rossi guns are their equal.

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1 minute ago, Tom Bullweed said:

If you are new to this game, it will a while before you are running stage times in the teens.

The only chance I'll ever have of shooting a stage in the teens is if it's a 5-5-2 round count! :lol:

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J-Bar, my point exactly.

A new shooter either will spend over a thousand on a 1873/1866 or they will have to decide on a Marlin or Rossi, either of which can do well and can be tuned.

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The theory that a gun will make a shooter faster, because the gun can be operated faster is seriously flawed.  I have been shooting with a friend for the last ten years or so.  We both started out using '92s.  I would beat him by about 20 seconds over a 6 stage match.  He got a Spur short stroked Marlin, I still would beat him by about 15 seconds a match.  Now he is shooting a short stroked '73, and the spread is down to 12 seconds.  He cannot figure out why the '73 or Marlin did not make him faster, now he is looking at getting a Lightning and having Lassiter set it up.

 

Bottom line is, in my opinion, speed is made up of shooter ability as well as well set up equipment.  A shooter needs to find the guns that are most comfortable for them to shoot, and then put in the time and practice needed to attain their maximum speed.  For me, I have not found any rifle that fells as good as my '92s, all of them will be on target when I open my eyes after shouldering them with my eyes closed.  No other rifle has allowed me to achieve that.

 

Finally, a shooter needs to determine what category they are going to shoot in, as some require specific guns.  It is very hard to explain to a new shooter why they cannot shoot BW with their shiny new '73, or why they cannot shoot CC with their new '92. 

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1 hour ago, Tracker Jack Daniels, 58780 said:

The theory that a gun will make a shooter faster, because the gun can be operated faster is seriously flawed.

It is NOT a theory.  It is fact.

A shorter lever throw will cycle faster than a longer lever throw. 

It is distance traveled divided by speed.

Even if the shooter changes absolutely nothing about themselves, a shorter lever throw distance will make their levering times faster.  Maybe these savings are "minor" taken individually.  But these insignificant savings taken cumalatively over the course of a 12 stage match add up.

  I have been shooting with a friend for the last ten years or so.  We both started out using '92s.  I would beat him by about 20 seconds over a 6 stage match.  He got a Spur short stroked Marlin, I still would beat him by about 15 seconds a match. 

Hmmm.

Did his change of equipment just improve his times by five seconds a match?

 

Now he is shooting a short stroked '73, and the spread is down to 12 seconds. 

Hmmm.

Another equipment change; another improvement. 

It sure seems to me, that your own examples support that equipment will change a shooters scores.

 

He cannot figure out why the '73 or Marlin did not make him faster.

It did make him faster.  The Marlin by 5 seconds a match over the baseline of you with a 92.  The 73 by 8 seconds a match. 

Just because the equipment isn't enough to overcome his deficit in time to you; doesn't mean that he can discount or disregard the difference that equipment made.

 

No one has ever claimed that changing guns will make you a world class shooter. 

Simply that faster guns will make you faster.

The skill of the operator is always the determining factor.

And yes; Deuce would still beat 90% of us if he shot a 92 and we were allowed to use our 73s.

 

And 92 proponents use this argument to claim that this means the 92 is as much gun as anyone needs. 

But most of us are just not as good as Deuce.  We are not fast enough, skilled enough or practiced enough to get all the potential out of a 92. 

So instead of using equipment requiring us to be able to run at 100%; We need equipment that we can run at 70% and show improved times over our earlier efforts. 

The only way to evaluate equipment is not "does this make me faster than him?", but "does this make me faster than  I was yesterday?" 

 

 

 

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You missed my point!  My point is; just because a short stroked rifle is faster than a non shot stroked one, does not mean it is going to make a shooter dramatically faster, 40%,was your example.  There are many things that factor into how fast someone can shoot. 

 

My other point is that not every rifle will fit or feel correct to every shooter, and may not be legal for every category.  New shooters should handle and shoot as many different rifles as possible to assist them in finding what feels and works best for them. 

 

The Marlin and '73 would give me no speed assistance because they do not feel right to me, and I have to fight them to get the sight picture I want.  Also, I do not trust a Marlin not to jam up and leave me with a tube of misses.

 

 

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Since the question is between a Marlin and a 92, I'll leave 73 out of it. I would suggest a 92. You can get one of those in the $500-$600 range. A good jm Marlin could run north of $900, at which point you're in the 73 territory and should at least contemplate them. At $500 you can get into the game right away and not be out much if you want to upgrade later. You could keep the 92 as a backup or even get most of what you put into it back. 

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While a stainless steel firearm has environmental advantages it has a serious sighting problem in bright sunlight.  I like stainless for the appearance.  I own 3 Vaqueros in SS.  One OM 357 & two NM 45's.  I have to paint the backs of the rear sight & front sight black to see the sights in bright sunlight.  I could bead blast the top of the barrels but that mod permanently alters the gun.  As far as selecting between a 92 & 1894 your criteria of multi use, CAS, WB & hunting I would select the 92; because the action can handle Ruger only handloads & Buffalo Bore +P ammo.

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8 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

Did you ever stop to think that changing to a 73 had nothing to do with faster times but experience and practice are what made the difference

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18 minutes ago, Henry T Harrison said:

Did you ever stop to think that changing to a 73 had nothing to do with faster times but experience and practice are what made the difference

You can spend all the hours af everyday taking corners hard in your moms station wagon, but you won't learn to drive a formula one car doi' it. 

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5 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

You can spend all the hours af everyday taking corners hard in your moms station wagon, but you won't learn to drive a formula one car doi' it. 

And that has what to do with anything

 

 

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Just now, Henry T Harrison said:

And that has what to do with anything

 

 

It means, all the practice in the world will not make you as fast as a guy who practices with a '73. 

Show me the fastest '92 shooter you know, and I'll show you 10 mediocre '73 shooters who are faster. a '73 is just faster. 

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