Why Total Time scoring is a disaster

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

12 hours ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

I'm going on faint memory, but a couple years back, there was one of the best discussion on the Wire about TT vs Rank.

 

If memory serves me correctly, Badlands Bud posted the best points for Total Time.

And I think it was Griff who posted the best points for Rank.

 

The discussion was very professional and both had super good info, stats, etc..... to back up their post.

 

Anyhow, Badlands Bud convinced me more that TT was the way to score our game more accurately and correctly.

 

I prefer TT.

 

..........Widder

 

 

Widder:

     You are correct. The Thread was:  

     and click on the title of the link below to go to that thread:

    

 

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

1 hour ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

 

Widder:

     You are correct. The Thread was:  

     and click on the title of the link below to go to that thread:

    

 

Hi Kit,

 

Thank you for finding that. I am unarchiving it right now. I will BTT for all to see who might miss your link on this thread.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PS It is unarchived now.

[Maddog McCoy SASS #5672]

[Boomstick Bruce]

i have been at a match where two people were given stage DQ's (one for sweeping the entire posse, the other moved with a hammer back on a loaded chamber) and till finished higher than me. one shooter had a much lower TT than i did and finished two places behind me... something just doesnt seem fair about that... we didnt point a gun at the entire posse, or move with the hammer back on a loaded chamber and he was a much better and faster shooter than me...

 

if it werent for the rank point system, i would have had my first top 10 finish...

 

but if i want to play this game, i will play it by the rules and if those rules change, i will still play by them...

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 6:02 AM, Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 said:

Whatever scoring system is used, an individual's score should not be influenced by someone not in his category.

 

Rank points, as used in SASS, causes outside influence on an individual's score.  Total time does not.

 

If the WB insists on rank points, use only in-category rank points, not overall rank points.

I am wholly and completely a total time proponent; but if you are using rank points - you MUST use the entire pool of shooters, not just those in category.

At least with rank points using the entire pool of shooters, differences between the performances of shooters do matter.

Rank points within category completely removes any time significance between shooters.

 

I.e.

In a total time match, shooter A is beating shooter B by 5 seconds a stage.  Eleven other shooters in category all shooting about a second a stage behind shooter B. At the end of five stages, A has a 25 second cushion on B.  30 seconds on everyone else. Then on stage 6, shooter A has 3 misses and a shotgun fumble, giving up 20 seconds to the pack. 

A still has a 5 second cushion.

 

in rank by all shooters, the math works  differently and (depending on your placement within the curve), variably; but the concept is similiar.

Shooter A is still 5 seconds a stage faster than B, placing X number of rank points between he and shooter B on every stage.  And a couple more between himself and everyone else he is shooting against on every stage as well.

Assuming some consistency in the pool of shooters; his five stage cushion of rank points may/ may not be enough to protect him on his stage six meltdown.  But one meltdown will likely not end his match relative to the others in his category.

 

But, rank points within category?

Shooter A earned 5 rank within category in his first 5 stages.

Shooter B earned 10.

On stage 6, A earned 13 rank points.

B earned 1. 

Score after 6 stages,

A 18 rank - B 11 rank.

A can return to "win every stage by 5 seconds" mode.

B can continue to come in second.

At the end of the 10 stage match, shooter A leads his category by a very respectable 30 seconds.

And loses to B by 3 rank points within category.

 

Rank within category takes everything bad about rank and magnifies it.

 

There is only one honest scoring method in a timed event. 

TIME.

 

 

 

[Sawyer]

Quote

 

Rank Points always make me finish last twice, once for rank points and once for total time.  I came to SASS to play and meet new friends!  I love the game and I really love all the wonderful people I have met.  I don't care if SASS is for profit or not for profit.  I don't care if they use rank points or total time.  I started SAWYER'S SHOOTING SCHOOL for fun and as a way to meet new folks.  So far, over 4000 shooters have attended my school and it is just as much fun now as it was in the beginning, and that is why I love this game!  By the way could someone tell me what a score sheet is?  I have never looked at one!

[Marauder SASS #13056]

15 hours ago, Arcadia Outlaw SASS#71385 said:

The issue I have with rank scoring is for example if you have two misses on one stage and for whole match you eat so many rank points because it's on one stage your match is done but with total time you can have two misses on one stage or whole match doesn't matter time is the same 

 

AO

Arcadia is right.  Misses don't normally count against you as badly in a total time match.

 

I think baseball has it wrong.  It should not be the number of runs, but the total number of hits in the game.

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

In basketball, the number of time the ball hits the backboard, perhaps.

[Silver Sam, SASS #34718L]

Please educate someone who admittedly was daydreaming and missed a lot of this current Hot Topic...

Assuming the powers that be were to go to Total Time,

just how would they handle a SDQ ??????

 

Example...

Shooter A shoots 6 stages in 25 sec each with no misses .... Total Time  150 seconds

Shooter B shoots 6 stages in 28 sec each with no misses, but a stage DQ on one stage .... Total Time  140 seconds

 

Shooter B Wins  ???????????

 

So just exactly how would a Total Time match address this?

[Yusta B.]

SDQ in TT match is scored as 5 sec per stage target + 30 sec. 10-10-4+ stage would be 150 sec penalty.

[Three Gun Cole]

I prefer TT 

I Shot a state match scored by rank in category.   It was the biggest mistake of scoring that I ever saw.

Best as I remember, roughly 180-200 shooters

 

I shot traditional and finished 2nd in class and second overall

The third place traditional guy was the overall winner and state champ. The first place traditional guy was third overall.

True rank scoring had a different result.

Overall was scored by total time.

 

Everyone was pretty confused that the largest category winner was 3rd and the third place guy was declared the overall winner.

 

If I know your match is scored by category rank,  I'll shoot someplace else!!!!

 

 

3GC

 

[Silver Sam, SASS #34718L]

2 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

SDQ in TT match is scored as 5 sec per stage target + 30 sec. 10-10-4+ stage would be 150 sec penalty.

 

Thanks Yusta B.....

 

Does anyone know if ACES will score on a TT format ????

[Three Gun Cole]

We used Aces at the Michigan state match several times with total time 

 

Worked great

[Silver Sam, SASS #34718L]

3 minutes ago, Three Gun Cole said:

We used Aces at the Michigan state match several times with total time 

 

Worked great

 

I assume it automatically adds the time penalty for a SDQ ?

Or does it have to be manually entered?

[CodyMaverick]

I like rank points mostly because the only times it has made any real difference in my score it was in my favor.  Naturally I'm going to favor things that favor me.

 

I have no objection to total time matches at all.  I just try to do the best I can do and I'm quite satisfied when I accomplish that no matter where I place on the score sheet.

 

I would like to see some clubs give the stage points method a try and see how that works out.

[Jackrabbit Joe #414]

Total Time all the way!

[Fast Enuff]

We score every match with ACES in TT.  It allows any value you want for the DQ.   You can either set a fixed value for a SDQ of whatever you like OR it will do the calculated 30 + misses for a stage.

[Sidekick]

On 6/29/2017 at 7:11 PM, CodyMaverick said:

I like rank points mostly because the only times it has made any real difference in my score it was in my favor.  Naturally I'm going to favor things that favor me.

 

I have no objection to total time matches at all.  I just try to do the best I can do and I'm quite satisfied when I accomplish that no matter where I place on the score sheet.

 

I would like to see some clubs give the stage points method a try and see how that works out.

Stage points are even more screwed up than rank points.

[Bart Solo]

I like to look at scoring through the eyes of an average shooter like me. There are a lot more people like me than who are like Matt Black. He can take care of himself.  A few misses can mean a lot when  you are in the middle of the pack, but if you are on top a miss doesn't mean as much.  

 

Recently I shot in POP against my long time nemesis Bulldog Brown.  I took first in our category and he took 2nd.  When you look at the times stage by stage we weren't that far apart, but he made mistakes on a couple of stages. I ended up with 242 rank points and he ended up with 405. In my heart of hearts I know the difference between us wasn't  163 rank points.  It was much closer.   I can only imagine what happens at large matches like EOT where a couple of hundred people are shooting around 20 seconds or less.   

 

I have been thinking about this and I am coming to the conclusion that total time is a better method for the middle of the pack shooter who is competing with his friends. 

[Griff]

On 6/28/2017 at 4:31 PM, Smokestack said:

What are some of the flaws in a Total Time scoring method? I am interested in hearing the reasons why it is not the preferred scoring method of the sanctioning body.  There have to be some very compelling reasons I would imagine, for which the Wild Bunch seems to be so disinterested in the opinion of the majority of shooters.   I just can't think of any. 

    I understand that this is not a democracy and that the majority has no right to determine things like the scoring system used, and that's OK. This is not an attack on the Wild Bunch in any way. Their game, their rules. I am eternally grateful for what they provide us and the work, and at times unpopular decisions they have to make. I am just trying to gain some perspective on this issue. 

In simple terms, with no animosity to any opposing point of view:  Rank Points simply puts dissimilar length stages on equal footing.  A particular placing on any stage is of equal value to the same numerical placing on any other stage.  Any other assertion to the use of Rank Points as the scoring method is personal bias.

[Captain Clark]

50 minutes ago, Griff said:

In simple terms, with no animosity to any opposing point of view:  Rank Points simply puts dissimilar length stages on equal footing.  A particular placing on any stage is of equal value to the same numerical placing on any other stage.  Any other assertion to the use of Rank Points as the scoring method is personal bias.

No animosity on my part when I ask.. What is the benefit of "puts dissimilar length stages on equal footing"? Why would it matter that these stages are of "equal value" as you describe? 

Total time lets each stage reflect it merits and individual shooters abilities uniquely per stage by Time! Guess I misunderstand the concept of CAS being a TIMED event. Rank points reminds me of "Calculus with a rifle"

Rank points seem to create 12 individual mini matches that all shooters compete against one another for rank within their category with results being influenced by shooters in other categories, IMHO

[Griff]

8 hours ago, Captain Clark said:

What is the benefit of "puts dissimilar length stages on equal footing"? Why would it matter that these stages are of "equal value" as you describe?

To go all biblical... "In the Beginning", stages were often shot shot using one gun, or maybe two, immediately preceding or following a stage using all three in combination.  Stages often required movement in excess of just side-stepping once... or twice.  This disparity between the time it took to shoot a stage with only one gun, vs one that used 3 guns, or one that involved movement vs one that was a "stand & deliver" was/is seen as giving far greater importance to the match than was deemed practicable in deciding the "Match" winner.  Taking a 5-second one gun stage and scoring it strictly on the basis of placement, alongside a stage that took 30+ seconds, also scored strictly on placement was seen as giving the two stages equal value to a final placement in the match.  In TT if one shoots a one gun stage clean where everyone had one miss means you no have a 5-second lead going into the next stage... whereas in RP, you'd only have a one point lead.  If the next stage was a long involved movement stage and you finished 2nd behind the stage "winner" by 10 seconds, in TT you'd be 5 seconds behind in the race to the overall... but under RP, you be tied, one stage win each.  Continue that for 8-10 more stages with differing time differentials and you may see where the "value" of having a premium placed on stage "placement" can be of benefit.  

 

The notion that it placed MORE importance on accuracy in the very quick stages. was either discounted or not recognized... then again maybe, intentional.  While cowboy action shooting has never placed a premium on accuracy, rank point scoring does, after a fashion.  IOW, imperfectly.  But, TT does the same, in a somewhat more straight forward manner.

 

In a total time scored match, I have seen a "winner" that only won one stage, out of TEN.  And wasn't even in the top 5 on the other nine.  You might find it telling, but in the days before SASS was formed, and even after, the monthly matches hosted and run by the WB used total time as the scoring method... But, for their World Championship they used Rank Points.  I know this because... my wife used to help with the scoring of the monthly matches.  Yet, the WB used a computer program to compile the scores for EOT.

 

Neither TT nor RP are considered "perfect"... Other scoring options include Stage Point as used in Wild Bunch, and several others used in games where targets are scored and then factored into the time.  

 

Shoot fast, miss often.

 

Edited to add:   There used to be 3 categories... Modern, Traditional & Ladies.  Then Junior was added... and it's been all downhill since.  And if you look at it practically, no one determines your finish but yourself.  No one else missed that shot... no one else fumbled those shotshells, no one else double stroked that rifle, or missed cocking that sixgun.  You determine your fate.

[Bart Solo]

10 hours ago, Griff said:

In simple terms, with no animosity to any opposing point of view:  Rank Points simply puts dissimilar length stages on equal footing.  A particular placing on any stage is of equal value to the same numerical placing on any other stage.  Any other assertion to the use of Rank Points as the scoring method is personal bias.

That may have been important back in the day, but the modern SASS game doesn't have much variation stage to stage.  When I started there were stages that rewarded reloading on the clock, pulling shotgun shells out of boxes and long range accuracy and others that rewarded raw speed.   A SASS event really was a series of individual matches. These days the focus is on speed above all else.  Match directors have become masters of moving shooters from stage to stage which means serious variation is not wanted and it doesn't need to be acknowledged.  Yes there is variation between stages, but when you look at how SASS has evolved there is less variation today than in the past.   

 

Each stage is more like an inning in a baseball game than its own game.  

[Griff]

Aye Bart, more's the pity to some parties.

[Captain Clark]

4 hours ago, Griff said:

To go all biblical... "In the Beginning", stages were often shot shot using one gun, or maybe two, immediately preceding or following a stage using all three in combination.  Stages often required movement in excess of just side-stepping once... or twice.  This disparity between the time it took to shoot a stage with only one gun, vs one that used 3 guns, or one that involved movement vs one that was a "stand & deliver" was/is seen as giving far greater importance to the match than was deemed practicable in deciding the "Match" winner.  Taking a 5-second one gun stage and scoring it strictly on the basis of placement, alongside a stage that took 30+ seconds, also scored strictly on placement was seen as giving the two stages equal value to a final placement in the match.  In TT if one shoots a one gun stage clean where everyone had one miss means you no have a 5-second lead going into the next stage... whereas in RP, you'd only have a one point lead.  If the next stage was a long involved movement stage and you finished 2nd behind the stage "winner" by 10 seconds, in TT you'd be 5 seconds behind in the race to the overall... but under RP, you be tied, one stage win each.  Continue that for 8-10 more stages with differing time differentials and you may see where the "value" of having a premium placed on stage "placement" can be of benefit.  

 

The notion that it placed MORE importance on accuracy in the very quick stages. was either discounted or not recognized... then again maybe, intentional.  While cowboy action shooting has never placed a premium on accuracy, rank point scoring does, after a fashion.  IOW, imperfectly.  But, TT does the same, in a somewhat more straight forward manner.

 

In a total time scored match, I have seen a "winner" that only won one stage, out of TEN.  And wasn't even in the top 5 on the other nine.  You might find it telling, but in the days before SASS was formed, and even after, the monthly matches hosted and run by the WB used total time as the scoring method... But, for their World Championship they used Rank Points.  I know this because... my wife used to help with the scoring of the monthly matches.  Yet, the WB used a computer program to compile the scores for EOT.

 

Neither TT nor RP are considered "perfect"... Other scoring options include Stage Point as used in Wild Bunch, and several others used in games where targets are scored and then factored into the time.  

 

Shoot fast, miss often.

 

Edited to add:   There used to be 3 categories... Modern, Traditional & Ladies.  Then Junior was added... and it's been all downhill since.  And if you look at it practically, no one determines your finish but yourself.  No one else missed that shot... no one else fumbled those shotshells, no one else double stroked that rifle, or missed cocking that sixgun.  You determine your fate.

Thanks for your explanation Griff. Your edit points out that "no one determines your finish but yourself"....... Except for the rank points gained or lost due to influence from outside your category under rank points IMHO!

It seems we will just disagree on this. In the end, we both seem passionate for CAS, which will continue evolve through discussions like these! Perhaps this is the best result for all involved. Take care, hope to meet you down the trail

[Scarlett]

On 6/28/2017 at 7:27 PM, C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 said:

 

 

Total Time Scoring vs. Rank Point Scoring is the result of Game Preference !

 

Which Game does one prefer to play ?    A Match of continuous competition or a Match which is series of discrete competitions?   Baseball is continuous competition, runs are accumulated over 9 innings.   Tennis is a series of discrete competitions - called Sets.  A Player can win the Match, 3 Sets to 2 Sets and have won less games than the one who won only 2 Sets.

 

Each stage is a Total Time Event.   The issue seems to be how the scores in each Total Time Stage are accumulated across a series of Stages for a Match Score.

 

If the individual Stages are NOT considered a discrete unique competition events, but instead continuous competition, then Total Time is a good method to obtain an individual score for each competitor. 

 

But if each Stage is considered a discrete unique event, then some other means than Total Time must be used to obtain an individuals score for a series of such unique discrete events (Stages).  Rank Points is one way to make such an addition of unequal unique events.

 

The Scoring System is the result of which Game is chosen.

 

If there could be agreement on what the game is today, then maybe  agreement  could be obtained  on the scoring system. 

 

The Wild Bunch evolved the Game as a Series of Discrete Competitions of Unequal Events.  And that is the Game that is played at regional and above matches.

 

I enjoy both Games, but will play them slightly differently.

 

As long as the concept of fairness is debated, the debate can never end, as fairness is in the eye of the beholder.

 

 

 

Thank you for that description!  This description of rank points is the best I've seen. I like to shoot cowboy so I don't really care how it's scored... 

 

Scarlett

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Shooting FCD a miss on one stage can cost you more than one Miss on EACH of 4 other stages ...

A miss on one Stage can cost you 300 Rank Points, while a miss on another stage might only cost you 46 points ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Seems Fair ,,,,, Right ,,,,,, NOT !!!

 

Total Time !!!  this is a Shooting Match that uses a TIMER ,,,, duh !!!

 

Jabez Cowboy

[CodyMaverick]

9 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Thank you for that description!  This description of rank points is the best I've seen. I like to shoot cowboy so I don't really care how it's scored... 

 

Scarlett

 Me Too!!!

 

It does seem that this game has changed quite a bit from its inception.  I frequently hear the old timers (like Cockroach) talk about a lot of very creative and fun non-shooting things they used to have to on the clock during the course of a stage.  And, they would have such a variation of activities and challenges in the stages of a match that a given shooter might take 20 sec. to complete one but take 60 sec. to complete the next one.  With that much variety it makes sense that some type of weighted scoring was necessary.

 

Now it seems that the majority of stages are all 10-10-4 with the only variety being target/prop layout, shooting order, and target sequence.  It appears that most matches I have been to were purposely designed to balance out the time to complete factor.  e.g. one stage will have on 2 SG while another will have 6 or one stage as stand & deliver while another has split guns and/or more movement.  If that is going to be the norm then RP scoring seems unneeded and undesired "apparently".

[Amarillo Rattler]

KISS should apply.

 

If XX shot the match BETTER than others in his category, he should win.

Lower Raw Time + All Penalties = BETTER

 

That's the way we enter our scores on each stage. Do the same for the match.

 

And I've never seen or heard of an unfair TT match result, though 150, instead of 999, for a SDQ seems to be preferred on another thread.

 

Just sayin'

Amarillo Rattler

 

 

[Boon Doggle]

When the same topic of TT vs. RP scoring comes up year after year, with at least four different threads going on about it at the moment.  And folks starting to get a little hot under the collar.  Well, you might start to think that something is not quite right with one of them.

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

On July 1, 2017 at 1:08 AM, Griff said:

In simple terms, with no animosity to any opposing point of view:  Rank Points simply puts dissimilar length stages on equal footing.  A particular placing on any stage is of equal value to the same numerical placing on any other stage.  Any other assertion to the use of Rank Points as the scoring method is personal bias.

 

Maybe in the beginning this what the WB thought might work but 

I really don't see this description, with Rank points penalties ( misses or P, ) on different stages are not the same value, on a fast stage a miss can cost a lot of rank points and on a slower stage a miss may not cost a shooter very many rank especially if shooter is a "fast shooter". So the difference between a fast and slow stage can be huge. And does not have to be a miss per say but a fixable on clock gun malfunction or anything that costs you 5+ seconds.

 

A couple folks on the rank point threads have said that it's easier to overcome a penalty in a rank point match and that is completely wrong. IMHO at a big match with good competition with rank points if a shooter has a 5 second penalty on a fast stage they have no chance at winning or if you have a 10 second penalty on any stage your basically done as far as winning. With total time it does not matter what stage the penalty was on or whether it you had it 1 stage or 2 stages, and with Total Time. 

 

Sidekick at EOT would be a good example he had second best TT but he had 1 miss on a fast stage that cost him a ton of rank points if that miss would of been on a different ( longer ) stage not so much and he would of had a higher finish. 

 

For whatever reason the Wild Bunch seems to like Rank Points so I'm guessing it's here to stay so I don't seeing anything changing as long as they are still in charge ,but I don't think changing or discussing TT or RP points hurts past winners.

 

AO

[Pat Riot]

On 7/1/2017 at 8:20 AM, Bart Solo said:

That may have been important back in the day, but the modern SASS game doesn't have much variation stage to stage.  When I started there were stages that rewarded reloading on the clock, pulling shotgun shells out of boxes and long range accuracy and others that rewarded raw speed.  

Perhaps this is why many have dropped out or moved on to other things. Perhaps this is why we don't attract new shooters. A lot of the "fun" is history now.

 

Today as compared to 10-15 years ago, targets were sometimes set further out. Some stages would be written for some fun factor. At a ten stage match there would be a couple of what I call "fun stages" where you'd need 3 revolvers or a stage where you could use any guns or combination of guns as long as you fired 32 times at various targets in a certain sequence, or you'd lasso something to start your time. Fun stuff.

 

We were setting up our targets for the next day's match recently and I swear, the targets were so close that it almost made me uncomfortable to shoot at them. The rifle targets were set where pistol targets would possibly be years ago and the pistol target were less than 5 yards away. I suggested we move all the targets back and folks looked at me like I had just insulted their mothers. Now, I am not complaining...well, I guess I am. I like a little fun once in a while. If I wanted to shoot USPSA, IDPA, or 3 Gun I would be doing that...which I have, I came back to what I love most.

 

Today it seems to be about speed. The shooter's speed, the speed from one stage to the next and the speed to get the match ended so it can be scored. Speed.

 

I do not really have an opinion regarding Rank vs Total Time. So, sorry for the hi-jack. I am sure that if I ever got fast enough to have the scoring matter it will be what it will be. As long as everyone is scored the same way then that is fine with me.

[Jackrabbit Joe #414]

We all kind of stand behind SASS but I strongly believe that our Territorial Governors need to get with the program and listen to the voices of the shooters as to what the shooters want weather it is rank points or total time.

 

If it was not for the shooters would SASS still be there, after all the shooters that still are SASS members should have a little say some where  about Rank Points &/or Total Time.

 

Every one should make contact with the TG's within your clubs and converse with them of this. Please believe me I am not trying to stir up a hornets nest. I love cowboy action shooting and pay my dues to SASS and couple other clubs as a member and do support other clubs by making it to some of there shoots also.

 

Thanks for your eyes and reading with due respect to all.

 

Jackrabbit Joe #414

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

3 hours ago, Jackrabbit Joe #414 said:

We all kind of stand behind SASS but I strongly believe that our Territorial Governors need to get with the program and listen to the voices of the shooters as to what the shooters want weather it is rank points or total time.

 

If it was not for the shooters would SASS still be there, after all the shooters that still are SASS members should have a little say some where  about Rank Points &/or Total Time.

 

Every one should make contact with the TG's within your clubs and converse with them of this. Please believe me I am not trying to stir up a hornets nest. I love cowboy action shooting and pay my dues to SASS and couple other clubs as a member and do support other clubs by making it to some of there shoots also.

 

Thanks for your eyes and reading with due respect to all.

 

Jackrabbit Joe #414

It ain't the TG's JJ........It's the Wild Bunch plain and simple.....make your voice heard to them.

 

Stan