Slick McClade Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 The match was exceptional in almost every way. The stage writing was great & the target placement was phenomenal. Plenty of water on the stages along with snacks. The water truck did an awesome job keeping the roads sprayed down to help settle the dust. The new big tent for all the main events was nice and plenty of room for everyone. BUT I will agree with Wiskey Kid on the awards. I've been match director for our annual match since 2009. Our match Hell Fire brings in around 150-170 shooters. We have water tents on each end of the range for everyone. Each shooter receives 3 meal tickets, Free speed side matches and are invited to a "Gumbo" greet on Friday night. With this being said our match fee is $110 Main shooter, $95 Spouse, $60 Junior/Buckaroo/Buckarette or Family of 3 $250. We give awards 3 deep in the major SASS recognized category's. We always manage to give very nice awards every year. our motto is "Shooters are our customers and we want to make our customers happy, Ultimately with out customers "shooters" there will be no us". If we as a small club with 150 shooters can offer all of this why can't the show boat of SASS "World Championships" ? The Overall category World Championship category buckles and trophies are nice and thank you for that. My personal opinion is why offer all the categories that you did this year? When I started SASS in 2006 it was a honor to win at WR & EOT. Now it's more of show up, shoot and get your award. What happen to the time when a shooter was awarded for the hard work they had put into shooting. Not , I can't win that category so lets make a new one. My opinion is cut back on some of the category's , why have 4+ Gun Fighter category's and so on ..... ?? Any way that's a whole new topic . Here's a sample of the category Champion buckle that was given in 2014, the 2nd -3rd was like it but solid silver and read WINNER, these cost $41 & $38. I'll even offer my services to the Wild Bunch to design and help with next years awards at EOT. T-Bone Dooley told me one time, Slick remember it doesn't cost any more for awards if you have 100 shooters or 1000. Always give good prizes and they will continue to come back. The Wild bunch is on the right track with EOT and I want to personally thank you for all you do. But remember it is the World Championships of Cowboy Action Shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Hi Folks, It saddens me that any complaint is considered whining by some. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, they should be looked at and valued as at as opportunities for improvement. Again, you can't please everyone; but, if you get many complaints about something, it should be given consideration. One person's complaint, not so much. A complaint about one item is not an attack on the match or the organizers and should not be taken as such. Slick mentioned ways that a match can improve on the quality of awards. That is a good way to open a discussion on how to deal with this complaint. Calling it whining is not. I feel bad for Whiskey Kid. He was just politely expressing his opinion, which he should be able to do without the implication of whining. Sincerely, Allie Mo PS Also like I implied earlier, I think we put on a much better CA State SASS match this year thanks to the Comment Sheets and complaints about the previous year. For example, we had a bigger tent, better food, and no backlog on one stage that we had the year before. I personally, wish someone other than me had complained about the plastic gold cups that looked like bowling trophies that we gave as awards. No one but me complained. I know this as I recapped the Comment Sheets both years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc roy l. pain Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Although I did not attend EOT this year. I agree 100% with Slick. I've been to too many other shoots with more amenities and nicer awards for less shooter fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey Kid Posted June 28, 2017 Author Share Posted June 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said: Hi Folks, It saddens me that any complaint is considered whining by some. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, they should be looked at and valued as at as opportunities for improvement. Again, you can't please everyone; but, if you get many complaints about something, it should be given consideration. One person's complaint, not so much. A complaint about one item is not an attack on the match or the organizers and should not be taken as such. Slick mentioned ways that a match can improve on the quality of awards. That is a good way to open a discussion on how to deal with this complaint. Calling it whining is not. I feel bad for Whiskey Kid. He was just politely expressing his opinion, which he should be able to do without the implication of whining. Sincerely, Allie Mo PS Also like I implied earlier, I think we put on a much better CA State SASS match this year thanks to the Comment Sheets and complaints about the previous year. For example, we had a bigger tent, better food, and no backlog on one stage that we had the year before. I personally, wish someone other than me had complained about the plastic gold cups that looked like bowling trophies that we gave as awards. No one but me complained. I know this as I recapped the Comment Sheets both years. Thanks Allie! I knew I would get some negative feedback on my comments when I posted, and that's okay, I have pretty thick skin! I spoke with many shooters with the same opinion as mine, but was afraid it would go without being said. As you mentioned, this is an opportunity for improvement, and I hope that SASS will take our thoughts to heart! After all, EOT is less than a year away! I have been a part of planning several large matches, so I do realize that there are difficulties with the financial balance. We always say, "Have good food, good prizes and good stages and you will have a great match with happy shooters!" I didn't stay at the range for any of the banquets, so I can't speak to the food, but the Stages were EXCELLENT, Lassiter, Deuce and their team did a fine job, and I hope they will do it again next year! WK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 To be honest my first reaction was "Whiner"......BUT.....I've learned to think before I speak (sometimes). I can remember a local match that used to give out bowling trophies at their monthly match. They weren't very cowboy but that's what they did. As I was improving as a shooter one of my goals was to win one of those bowling trophies for Top Overall. Well wouldn't you know it, the very first time I won that monthly match they switched to Paper Certificates! Man was I disappointed!!!! I also think about some other local matches that switched awards and figure there were some folks that ended up feeling the same way as I did back then. "Man i really wanted to win one of those xxxxxxxx awards and now they've switched to xxxxxxxx right when I would have finally gotten one." So while I looked at the badges and thought "That's cool....something different and they have the actual category on them instead of winner" I'm not gonna castigate WK for feeling disappointed or speaking out. He really had his sights set on one of those Buckles and it felt like he was on an State Farm commercial with some old guy dangling a buckle in front of him and snatching it away saying ......"oooohhhh you almost had it. You've got be quicker than that". If they switch back to buckles there will be some poor cowboy lamenting that he did not get the badge that he wanted......From the match administrator end you can't win when you change. That's just part of it. They tried something different.....some will like it ..... some won't. I like the fact they are "trying" to do things differently than years past. That tells me they are wanting to make the match better. I certainly liked this year better than my last trip in 2012 So Whiskey, I feel for you. I disagree that the badges are cheesy but that's a simple difference in opinion and lord knows there's plenty of folks that think mine stinks.... I'm ok with that. Maybe they will bring the buckles back and you can get one of those too. Better yet.......hopefully if you continue to work on it you can get "The" Buckle that you really want. Good Shooting Pard and display your badge with pride. The meaning behind it is still the same! Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAST CHANCE Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 On 6/27/2017 at 5:42 AM, Two Irons said: Im new to sass and have never attended a big match like eot/wr. Also this is my opinion but awarding competitors with buckles 10 places deep in each division seems ridiculous. In my opinion top 3 in each division get buckles or whatever the prize. Any deeper in my opinion it deminishes the top 3. Imagine if they gave out ten medals at the olympics. I use other Champions buckles as motivation when i see them. A 10th place buckle, in my opinion, is a paper weight. This would cut down on the number of awards, and make the awards for the winners, much nicer. Make a commerative buckle for the event and sell it to everyone else that didnt win if they want a buckle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe LaFives #5481 Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 On 6/26/2017 at 2:55 PM, Cypress Sun said: I have never attended EOT or WR.....but I would be appreciative of any award I might recieve. One has to remember that 400+ other shooters didn't get shit. Spent their money, just like you. Just my view. Actually with 44 categories, Its highly likely that over half the 580+ shooters got an award. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 38 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said: Actually with 44 categories, Its highly likely that over half the 580+ shooters got an award. 44 categories, does any other competitive shooting sport have this many categories? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Dancer, SASS #70118L Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 Whiskey Kid (and Allie) I was not calling you a whiner. Sheesh! I would not do that. I read your comments as a complaint about awards. This is a subject that has been discussed alot in the past years as the categories multiplied and clubs have had a hard time keepting up...if they go more than 3-deep. That was my point. When I mentioned whiners, it was to those that look for a subject to beat to death to do just that...whine. But the written word is difficult when having discussions, conversations. Too much is misinterpreted or misunderstood. So that is why I begged the question, "what does a club do?" And you know what? There has been good discussion here. So in response to Allie's comment, complaints can be progressive. Shoots like EOT, WR, BT and others listen. We just have to let them know and you did. I hope to meet you one day, Whiskey. I hope it's at EOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Scotsman SASS #68879 Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 This is my first EOT. I had seen the buckles for years and wanted a chance to earn one. When my name was called and I walked up an accepted my plaque and badge, I didn't care that there wasn't a buckle. I had a fabulous time with some of the best people I'll ever meet. That is truly what I won last week. It was a great match from top to bottom. I felt well taken care of and the staff couldn't have been more hospitable. Congratulations to the Staff of SASS and all who put this match on. Deuce and Lassiter did an awesome job. I have no complaints and can't wait to come back. Scotsman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 Whiskey - Maybe you could offer to be on the awards committee for next years EOT? It seems like you have been to WR and EOT several times and that you travel a good bit so you have a lot of experience with various matches to offer. ... or, like someone said earlier, write a thoughtful, clear letter to SASS with suggestions. I used to get an awful lot of "constructive criticism" in a job that was really just criticism with a smile.., it's much more likely to be HEARD if it's stated as a suggestion or opportunity for improvement. Congrats on your shoot! Wear the pin proudly! You earned it and, I like it... it's not cheesy. Wear it so it ages. It'll be fine! Scarlett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 12 hours ago, Slick McClade said: The match was exceptional in almost every way. The stage writing was great & the target placement was phenomenal. Plenty of water on the stages along with snacks. The water truck did an awesome job keeping the roads sprayed down to help settle the dust. The new big tent for all the main events was nice and plenty of room for everyone. BUT I will agree with Wiskey Kid on the awards. I've been match director for our annual match since 2009. Our match Hell Fire brings in around 150-170 shooters. We have water tents on each end of the range for everyone. Each shooter receives 3 meal tickets, Free speed side matches and are invited to a "Gumbo" greet on Friday night. With this being said our match fee is $110 Main shooter, $95 Spouse, $60 Junior/Buckaroo/Buckarette or Family of 3 $250. We give awards 3 deep in the major SASS recognized category's. We always manage to give very nice awards every year. our motto is "Shooters are our customers and we want to make our customers happy, Ultimately with out customers "shooters" there will be no us". If we as a small club with 150 shooters can offer all of this why can't the show boat of SASS "World Championships" ? The Overall category World Championship category buckles and trophies are nice and thank you for that. My personal opinion is why offer all the categories that you did this year? When I started SASS in 2006 it was a honor to win at WR & EOT. Now it's more of show up, shoot and get your award. What happen to the time when a shooter was awarded for the hard work they had put into shooting. Not , I can't win that category so lets make a new one. My opinion is cut back on some of the category's , why have 4+ Gun Fighter category's and so on ..... ?? Any way that's a whole new topic . Here's a sample of the category Champion buckle that was given in 2014, the 2nd -3rd was like it but solid silver and read WINNER, these cost $41 & $38. I'll even offer my services to the Wild Bunch to design and help with next years awards at EOT. T-Bone Dooley told me one time, Slick remember it doesn't cost any more for awards if you have 100 shooters or 1000. Always give good prizes and they will continue to come back. The Wild bunch is on the right track with EOT and I want to personally thank you for all you do. But remember it is the World Championships of Cowboy Action Shooting. The one thing you mentioned is going three deep, which I think is fine but a lot of these shoots go way deeper, so a lot more awards are needed. The thing is too once you start doing something like going deeper with awards or giving belt buckles you can't back up or you sure will hear about it. AO sounds like your shoot is a great value Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey Kid Posted June 29, 2017 Author Share Posted June 29, 2017 14 hours ago, Sassy Dancer, SASS #70118 said: Whiskey Kid (and Allie) I was not calling you a whiner. Sheesh! I would not do that. I read your comments as a complaint about awards. This is a subject that has been discussed alot in the past years as the categories multiplied and clubs have had a hard time keepting up...if they go more than 3-deep. That was my point. When I mentioned whiners, it was to those that look for a subject to beat to death to do just that...whine. But the written word is difficult when having discussions, conversations. Too much is misinterpreted or misunderstood. So that is why I begged the question, "what does a club do?" And you know what? There has been good discussion here. So in response to Allie's comment, complaints can be progressive. Shoots like EOT, WR, BT and others listen. We just have to let them know and you did. I hope to meet you one day, Whiskey. I hope it's at EOT. Sassy, I did not think you were calling me a whiner, I didn't use those words. We have meet before, at Bordertown and at Eldorado, but we meet a lot of people in this game! That is part of the fun! Realistically, I have just as much fun in the hours surrounding the shooting with friends I have meet shooting. I was lucky enough to have a a great match at Eldorado last year and take home a 2nd place "buckle" in wrangler, it was a fantastic match and I have encouraged many of my local shooters to attend that match as I think is a must shoot match! My goal with this thread, was not to insult, or belittle SASS but to bring out some feelings that myself and many shooters I spoke with had! I think the pins were in bad form! That is my opinion and others have theirs! EOT got crushed with their awards! The National Championship does a better job at awards, PERIOD! Are there too many categories at EOT probably, is it all about money, absolutely! I don't have the books, so I can't speak intelligently on the subject of finances, none of that data is published. I do find it odd that WR pulls off better awards than EOT when SASS owns the range and WR rents from the state. Heck, the trophies were even sponsored by the NRA this year! Good stages, good awards, good food equals great match! That is the feedback we always get! if you miss on one you hear about it! Whiskey Kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Dancer, SASS #70118L Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 Hey, Whikey Kid! Thanks for replying. Your opinion is important because you're a shooter and a member. I'm so glad we've met before and hope we shoot together somewhere in the future. Yep, this shoot was a hoot and a half! I hope we get to meet up at Bordertown or Eldorado again. That's what I like about old age, you can keep meeting people again and again and each time it's new! Be well, brother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackaroo, # 29989 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Wow,.WK ....this was my 13th EOT,...the first 9 were from across the Pacific which cost wise comes to about $55000.00 ? You've only got a 250 mile drive and half a tank of gas to get there ?? 8 out of those 13 I went home totally empty handed,.. I've never had a problem with the awards, nice to win one of course, but it's the people, the atmosphere, the comradierie and all things western & cowboy that I come for! So maybe a little more practice for you to catch up with your adversaries, to get into the buckle arena now. But To go on the wire cause you only got a pin instead of a buckle,...well.......!! If fact I think the pin is damn nice, matches a similar buckle I got some years back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Sometimes Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 This was my first End of Trail and I was one of the Overall Winners at EOT, but didn't win anything, didn't bring anything shiny back nor did I get my name mentioned anywhere. Why, because I had an absolute blast! The whole trip was financially costly, it was a looong drive, but I never regretted any of it nor a single dime I spent. I loved every second of my 5 days there and got to finally meet lots of my Facebook cowboy friends. Loved all the booths and vendors and my posse mates as well. Bought a new holster rig and other trinkets, and got to shoot 12 stages in 3 days. Wow! Plus, I learned the importance of what loading blocks are for, not just looks.... I'm the guy who forgot to load his pistols. I shrugged it off, walked it off, and got back to the game and posse duties with a forced smile. I didn't shoot as well as I normally do, so I didn't deserve an EoT pin or concho, but I would have loved one. I'm that much more dedicated to returning next year and redeeming myself and earning something shiny next year. Had a blast, loved every second, didn't deserve a Concho but will work harder to earn one next year. Totally agree with Slick's thoughts. For state annual matches, you've got to offer good awards to get the attendance, but EoT is the World Championships, those should be earned and I didn't earn one this year (but I will next year :-) Dusty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Hill Dave #59561 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 I think WK has raised a fair issue. I was fine with the pin awards this year because it identified your category. And I was out of the running for anything higher than a pin award. I covet one of those big globes (I won my category one year, but that was before they started giving out globes). I will say this--I have two National Championship trophies (Remington replica statues), and I give them a place of honor with other art in my house because I think they look so good. Similarly, I have 2d, 3d and 4th place finish statues from Winter Range that I think look great as well (the 2d statue is finer than the 3d, which is finer than the 4th. Oh and you get a top 10 buckle too) So for the World Championship it is a small SASS figure statute (got a couple of them in earlier years--look the same as the world championship SASS figure, just a different small plaque on the statue) or a wooden plaque (this year) for the 2d and 3d and a buckle/pin for the top 10. Just not the same. Winning 5th or winning 2d at EOT, not that much difference as far as awards. I like going to EOT, and I will likely be back, but I have to admit that WR does a better job of awards and the chance to win one of those beautiful statues is one of (but certainly not the only) reason I love to go to WR. All that being said, this was my 9th (10th? I lose count) EOT and I think it showed a lot of improvement. Parking changes were the biggest improvement, and the big tent with AC was an excellent idea. I had a blast. Just hope the improvements keep coming. And I will take whatever (if any) award that I earn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assassin Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Actually, after seeing the post with the picture of the pin/badge next to one of the buckles I like the pin better than the buckles. Seems like everyone has a buckle and only a few hundred of those pins exist. Wear it proudly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey Kid Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share Posted June 30, 2017 14 hours ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said: Wow,.WK ....this was my 13th EOT,...the first 9 were from across the Pacific which cost wise comes to about $55000.00 ? You've only got a 250 mile drive and half a tank of gas to get there ?? 8 out of those 13 I went home totally empty handed,.. I've never had a problem with the awards, nice to win one of course, but it's the people, the atmosphere, the comradierie and all things western & cowboy that I come for! So maybe a little more practice for you to catch up with your adversaries, to get into the buckle arena now. But To go on the wire cause you only got a pin instead of a buckle,...well.......!! If fact I think the pin is damn nice, matches a similar buckle I got some years back. I think you are missing part of my point... First off, I wish I was only 250 mile away, I would have gotten home at 7pm not 2am, but that is what we do in SASS, we travel so we can have fun shooting with our friends! I appreciate the fact of how difficult travel is from those coming super long distances, Including oversees! Actually part of my frustration was thinking about those shooters! I loaded some BP ammo this year for some shooters coming from Germany, and was extremely happy to be able to do so! I'm sitting there at the awards and I'm thinking, this is the best SASS can do at the top event in the world? Someone like yourself, who at one time had to spend tens of thousands of dollars to make a trip to shoot at "The World Championships" to have them cheapen the awards, it really baffles me! You have seen the pictures of the awards, sitting next to the same category and position awards, how can you tell me they didn't make a mistake! I understand the difficulties with putting on a match. I am not someone that hasn't been involved in the sport. I have been helping set steal, writing stages, helping to put on annuals and even SASS sanctioned matches from the very first day I started playing this game and I will continue to do so! Heck, I've also really started to enjoy being a Posse Marshal, I've been able to PM 2 state and 2 Regional matches and look forward to doing it in the future as I love this game!!! SASS owes it to us, the shooter, the customer, the reason they can pay the bills, to do better! I know some people don't agree with me, and that's cool! Really! That's part of life and too many people can't stomach it if someone doesn't agree with them these days, they see it as an attach on them personally. I do not! We all have different opinions, and that's great, or life would be pretty boring! I will tell you, that there were plenty of people that thought the badge was a mistake, I spoke with them! In fact I didn't talk to one shooter that said thought the badges were better. The wire is where people come to discuss these kind of things if they want to voice their opinion, so that is why the topic is here. I look forward to meeting every shooter on the range and hope to shoot as many places as I can, because everywhere is different and that's part of the fun too! Remember, the pointy end goes down range! WK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackaroo, # 29989 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Yea sorry, I thought you were in Pampa, now that I've checked. Yea could be I probably just don't like critasizing awards in public, knowing what's involved I think as we all do the stress in putting on such a great event, but I see what you mean now. Funny we were just busy this am about making up a board with belts to display what buckles we have, as they're just lying on a shelf gathering dust, and when we came to this year's we pondered, well how do we set this one up.?? So will probably just wear it on the braces??? LOL Maybe we go too deep with awards sometimes, but then again we live in this new society....where participation awards seem to be the norm in some areas?? And looking around there are plenty of buckle & concho manufacturers around now at very competitive prices, we're looking at getting some for our club comp. from Molly's Custom Buckles, they have a nice range of buckles and conchos. But all in all the match and stages were great, except for my 2 Ps???? yea that little buffalo disappeared under my arm and gun on the way back...never saw him until the next big buffalo .......... But Kudos to both Deuce & Lassiter for a great match. Now for Days of Truth in Czech Republic...yeehaww Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singin' Sue 71615 Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 On 6/26/2017 at 8:31 PM, Tell Sackett SASS 18436 said: 4 years ago my wife and I attended EoT and both got buckles. We attended this year and neither got in the top 10 of our categories. Tougher competition. a step or 2 slower after 4 years(ages 63 and 61), and we didn't shoot up to our abilities(maybe the altitude and heat). I'd have LOVED a badge. Leaving with nothing when I hoped for something IS a dissapointment. Didn't even get a clean match this year. And yes, we had a good time, despite not winning anything. The stages were fine, problems were with us, and some equipment problems. Those who made the top 10 in your category- be glad for what you did get. A lot of us didn't get anything, other than a good time. Shanley finally made the Top 10!!! He shot really well and keeps improving. He took his award to work to show it off...so must like it! He did say he is still shooting toward a buckle!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Hi There Folks, I'm starting to get heartburn and a headache over this thread. Maybe I should have "nipped in the bud" and told WK to write the SASS office. If it had been a smaller match, I would have stopped it earlier and told the OP to contact the match organizers. Maybe I should let it go on. I can't really tell which way it will go; but, WK said his piece and over the course of five days, I think it has run its course. So, I think it is time to let things cool off. Maybe, if someone wants to discuss awards further, they can start a new thread and post photos (we can do that easily now) of nice or crappy awards and not mention where they came from. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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