shotshell belt height

[Snakebite]

"I don't need to "relax" or chill out"

 Actually, you might consider it. It is great that you want to know the rules, and play by them. As I'm sure that you have seen, there are many views and opinions, and enforcement is not, never has been, and never will be the same at every match or even within each match. But the rules do give us the road map to how we are suppose to play this game.  A major attempt to propagate the rules and get everyone on the "Same Page" has been made through the RO Training program. It has not made everything perfect my a long shot, but I can tell you that things are closer now than they use to be, and there is work in progress to improve things yet again. If I have followed your discussion correctly, it appears that you are not in agreement with some of the rules.... well partner... join the club. I don't know anyone that does not have some peeves about several rules. I've spent as much time as anyone working with them, and there are many of them that I don't like.... but that is just the way it is. Sometimes we can get things changed and sometimes we can't. New comers are welcome to ask questions, and can certainly express their opinions. Getting a little CAS experience under you belt (at belly button height) will greatly increase your knowledge of what goes on in the real world of CAS, and might give you some insight to some practical ways that we can improve things. It will also give you more ammo when you pick a fight.  (Please notice the Wink... that makes everything OK. )

 

Snakebite 

[Duncan Disorderly]

I've been told that if a club/person/ro/md are 'rule nazi's' shooters won't come back... aka, economic terrorism.

 

"if you're gonna be picky about the rules then I won't be back!"

And I've been told, as a MD, many similar things "do it this way or we won't be back/nobody will come/your club will fail" etc.

I've seen some high belts recently myself...if you go by the 'bottom' of the SG belt has to be at or below the belly button then there is a lot of, um, leeway shall we say, IMO.

I would interpret the rule to mean the TOPS of the shells must be at or below the BB...not the bottoms of the shells.

But I know club level shoots are where people start and learn..last match a shooter (newer I gather..never saw him before) had a 'tactical' black synthetic shotgun belt. Not legal at all. Nobody said a thing.
I have one too - never work it to a match, been using a slide to be legal.

I sometimes shoot b-western..been asked 'why not shoot it today?' and i'm obviously not in proper costume...

Had discussions about where people keep ammo...one shooter pulled a rifle round for a reload out of a belt buckle on his suspenders..above nipple level it was.  Hmm...I think that's wrong, isn't it?

I';m told from a POCKET, any pocket, is fine, even if it's a shirt pocket. Height being the same..is the suspender buckle legal?

[Duncan Disorderly]

Anyone notice if the top shots are called for / checked for violations more than the slow shooters?
Do the top shots follow the rules more so as not to be questioned on it?

[Smokey Shayne]

Let me give this a shot....   If I understand your question correctly..... 

 

My answer would be that the rules states "at or below the belly button"    That means anywhere below the belly button is fine.   So the shotgun belt and gun belt do not have to be in the same immediate area.   You can wear the gun belt a little lower which will allow plenty of room for the shotgun belt to be a little lower if need be.

 

Guys...I think he was asking how both belts can be worn at the belly button.       But I could be wrong

[ShadowCatcher]

On 6/17/2017 at 1:22 PM, Roscoe Regulator said:

SASS rules state:

"Ammo belts must be worn so all ammo is positioned at or below the belly button."

 

The context suggests that this applies to shot shell belts as well as belts carrying holsters. This is not what I am seeing in pictures and videos, and I don't see how it is practical to have two wide belts at that level unless wearing a buscadero rig. What say you?

Welcome to the world of folks doing something the way they want so long now that they won't hear anything else, including the rules.

 

The rule is pretty clear, but a lot of folks get lazy about enforcing it, and so many of them share the same issues with complying with it,

that they just go along to get along.  There are other rules like this as you'll see, in time.

 

Now, you could get all stuffy and precise and try and get them to comply, or you could just do your best to comply and ignore them.

I can give you a guess or two as to which route will lead to inner peace and happiness, but I figure you're a smart guy and can figure this out yourself.

 

Trust me in this - just play your own game and let them do what they will, you'll sleep better for knowing what you do to play by the rules.

 

SC

 

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

3 hours ago, Duncan Disorderly said:

I've been told that if a club/person/ro/md are 'rule nazi's' shooters won't come back... aka, economic terrorism.

 

"if you're gonna be picky about the rules then I won't be back!"

And I've been told, as a MD, many similar things "do it this way or we won't be back/nobody will come/your club will fail" etc.

I've seen some high belts recently myself...if you go by the 'bottom' of the SG belt has to be at or below the belly button then there is a lot of, um, leeway shall we say, IMO.

I would interpret the rule to mean the TOPS of the shells must be at or below the BB...not the bottoms of the shells.

But I know club level shoots are where people start and learn..last match a shooter (newer I gather..never saw him before) had a 'tactical' black synthetic shotgun belt. Not legal at all. Nobody said a thing.
I have one too - never work it to a match, been using a slide to be legal.

I sometimes shoot b-western..been asked 'why not shoot it today?' and i'm obviously not in proper costume...

Had discussions about where people keep ammo...one shooter pulled a rifle round for a reload out of a belt buckle on his suspenders..above nipple level it was.  Hmm...I think that's wrong, isn't it?

I';m told from a POCKET, any pocket, is fine, even if it's a shirt pocket. Height being the same..is the suspender buckle legal?

 

Your interpretation of the rule is incorrect.

Carrying ammo for stage reloads on/in any part of a suspender is not listed, therefore it is NOT LEGAL.

"Pocket" is listed...REF: SHB p.11.

 

BTW...some of us take extreme exception to the use of the term "nazi"...in ANY context.

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

3 hours ago, Duncan Disorderly said:

Anyone notice if the top shots are called for / checked for violations more than the slow shooters?
Do the top shots follow the rules more so as not to be questioned on it?

 

Speaking from many years of experience as a Range Master at major SASS-sanctioned events at all levels, ALL competitors are expected to follow ALL of the rules, and are treated equally as much as possible.

There might be a bit more "self-policing" among the top shooters in their respective categories in regard to any violations being brought to the attention of match officials.

[Duncan Disorderly]

long time seinfeld fan..

 

6 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Your interpretation of the rule is incorrect.

Carrying ammo for stage reloads on/in any part of a suspender is not listed, therefore it is NOT LEGAL.

"Pocket" is listed...REF: SHB p.11.

 

BTW...some of us take extreme exception to the use of the term "nazi"...in ANY context.

 

 

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

As earlier stated....not all shooters are created equal (or remain that way). I have a colostomy at belly button height. I have to wear my shotgun bely higher to clear the device. Over the years I have been asked why my belt is so high, but usually at a shoot where I'm new, I'll tell the MD about the situation and it becomes a moot situation. Just remember....sometimes the rules just don't fit all situations.

[Roscoe Regulator]

7 hours ago, ShadowCatcher said:

Welcome to the world of folks doing something the way they want so long now that they won't hear anything else, including the rules.

 

The rule is pretty clear, but a lot of folks get lazy about enforcing it, and so many of them share the same issues with complying with it,

that they just go along to get along.  There are other rules like this as you'll see, in time.

 

Now, you could get all stuffy and precise and try and get them to comply, or you could just do your best to comply and ignore them.

I can give you a guess or two as to which route will lead to inner peace and happiness, but I figure you're a smart guy and can figure this out yourself.

 

Trust me in this - just play your own game and let them do what they will, you'll sleep better for knowing what you do to play by the rules.

 

SC

 

 

Thanks. You are not the first to suggest that I am concerned about what others are doing. I am not thinking in those terms and don't believe I ever wrote about anything other than citing the examples of how belts are typically observed worn "high" and relating that to my own use of a belt. I have not suggested that I need to control others compliance with a clearly impractical rule that ignores body types. I have been coached to wear mine as low as possible, which is quite uncomfortable over a muffin top, when tight enough to stay in place while pulling shells and moving between stations. Fortunately the belt tapers at the buckle, so relief is provided when not shooting by turning the belt around, buckle forward.

 

I guess if I were to suggest a rule, I would say the shotshell belt must be at "the waist" or "immediately" above the gunbelt, leaving the terms in parens to the RO's judgment. The rule as it is only seems practical for Gunfighters with low slung buscadero rigs, leaving their natural waist, above the pelvis, even lower, to hold a shotshell belt. The question is where it can be cinched tight enough for drawing a pair of shells. To me, that suggests above the pelvis or muffin top. Those with a round girth would likely have the belt more secure against pulling shells if it was below the crest of the belly, yes perhaps out of sight. It all really kind of demands an RO judgment about what appears practical for the individual, and I suspect that is exactly what is happening in not holding everyone to the rule exactly as it reads and trying not to alienate participation by being too strict.

 

It has occurred to me that the controlling issue is for the belt to stay put when pulling shells. Rather than cinch it up so tight, I would think it could be lashed to the gunbelt, tethered similarly to a gunfighters holster lashed to the thigh.

 

I would think having a special gunbelt that includes shotshell loops goes too far and would be too specific to SASS and, to my knowledge, not reminiscent of gear actually used in the Old West or the movies. I believe I will shop for a belt slide; period correct or not, I don't know; since the area at my belly button is already occupied. Wearing my gunbelt lower is not going to happen. My rear end would prevent it, another example where body type is a factor to consider.

[Sedalia Dave]

Here's a challenge to all those that say there is rampant problem.  For the next 30 days every time you think a shotgun belt is too high ask the shooter to prove they are in compliance. Keep track of how many you find in violation and how many you were wrong about. At the end of the 30 days post your results.  

 

Bet you find that your assumptions about where belly buttons are is way off base.

 

The last time this went around a young shooters integrity was called into question over the height of his/her shotgun belt based on a photograph or video I don't remember which that was taken at a taken at a big match. Turned out he was well within compliance and several people had to apologize for their assumptions about human anatomy.

 

For your enlightenment / entertainment  When U.S. air force discovered the flaw of averages

[Ace_of_Hearts]

17 hours ago, Duncan Disorderly said:

I've been told that if a club/person/ro/md are 'rule nazi's' shooters won't come back... aka, economic terrorism.

 

"if you're gonna be picky about the rules then I won't be back!"

And I've been told, as a MD, many similar things "do it this way or we won't be back/nobody will come/your club will fail" etc.

I've seen some high belts recently myself...if you go by the 'bottom' of the SG belt has to be at or below the belly button then there is a lot of, um, leeway shall we say, IMO.

I would interpret the rule to mean the TOPS of the shells must be at or below the BB...not the bottoms of the shells.

But I know club level shoots are where people start and learn..last match a shooter (newer I gather..never saw him before) had a 'tactical' black synthetic shotgun belt. Not legal at all. Nobody said a thing.
I have one too - never work it to a match, been using a slide to be legal.

I sometimes shoot b-western..been asked 'why not shoot it today?' and i'm obviously not in proper costume...

Had discussions about where people keep ammo...one shooter pulled a rifle round for a reload out of a belt buckle on his suspenders..above nipple level it was.  Hmm...I think that's wrong, isn't it?

I';m told from a POCKET, any pocket, is fine, even if it's a shirt pocket. Height being the same..is the suspender buckle legal?

You are incorrect. 

Ask the shooter to put his finger on his/her belly button. If it touches any part of the shell, it is good to go.

 

[Hoss]

Roscoe, easiest way to tell is to wear you shotgun belt where you want it, then touch your belly button. if ANY PART of the shotgun shell is at or below, you are OK.

 

As for me, if anybody wants to poke around lookin fer my bellybutton, they gonna haft to buy me dinner first!

[McCandless]

Sometimes, things are just obvious.

[Scarlett]

On 6/17/2017 at 8:16 PM, Roscoe Regulator said:

I want to avoid penalties and DQs, so it will be a while before I can relax. That will require complete confidence in my knowledge and recall of the rules as well as interpretations of the rules I can live by.

Roscoe - Don't you worry!  We will help

you get comfortable with the rules and won't let you get into trouble!  It takes a while to "get it".  I understood the rules much better when I "saw" them in action... not just read them.... they make more sense. Hope to see you in Greenville this Sunday!

 

Hugs,

Scarlett