Mink Shoals Bandit, #49388 Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 8 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said: For your consideration, from the ROI, "Inadvertently leaving unfired rounds in a revolver is a miss unless the round is under the hammer, then it is a Stage Disqualification." I don't see any comments regarding a Procedural and we all know a "miss cannot cause a P." In this case the shooter got the P because the TO told him/her to shoot the missed round. The "P" was earned in the middle of the pistol string when he/she failed to "double tap" target #3... And came back and hit it with the last shot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 9 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said: For your consideration, from the ROI, "Inadvertently leaving unfired rounds in a revolver is a miss unless the round is under the hammer, then it is a Stage Disqualification." I don't see any comments regarding a Procedural and we all know a "miss cannot cause a P." In this case the shooter got the P because the TO told him/her to shoot the missed round. I humbly disagree, as stated earlier the shooter got the P when failed to double tap target 3, putting the last shot on target 3 or any other pistol target saved him a 5 second miss penalty in addition to the P he had alresdy earned. Proper coaching Thanks Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 I had mistakenly assumed that "liking" the first six or so CORRECT answers would save me from having to post on this thread. Guess I was wrong. PLEASE READ THE OP BEFORE RESPONDING TO A "WtC?" INQUIRY! Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Okay, I give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 The OP is NOT a "Shooter's Choice" situation...other than he had a choice whether to redraw & fire the 5th round from the first revolver...take the 5-seconds or not. The "P" was earned mid-string...NOT when the 10th shot was finally fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 7 hours ago, Grouchy Spike said: What's the call here about coaching? CAS Scenario calls for a double tap sweep of five targets from either end with the pistols. ... Shooter engages targets 5-5; 4-4 and holsters the first pistol. Target 3 is not engaged, leaving an unfired round in the holstered pistol . Shooter has not cocked the first pistol after shooting the 4th shot, so the hammer is resting on a fired round With the second pistol shooter engages targets 3: 2-2; 1-1. A spotter tells the shooter "One more". I think that the TO also said "One more" or may have said nothing. Shooter pulls the first pistol with the unfired round and engages target 3, which is the target at which he didn't double tap. All ten shots have hit the pistol targets but target 3 is not double tapped. It is hit twice but the scenario required double taps. Discussion ensues between the spotters about the penalty with no agreement. Upon review by the Match Director the penalty is a "P" for shooting target 3 out of sequence. Actually, the "P" is for shooting target 2 out of sequence...5/5/4/4/3/2(P)/2/1/1/3 The shooter was coached to fire that 10th round in attempt to avoid a miss, and incurred a 10 second penalty instead of a 5 second penalty A penalty could not be avoided in this situation. Had the shooter not fired that unfired 5th shot from the first pistol out of sequence, he would have incurred a miss and not a "P". NO...the shooter got the "P" for HITTING THE TARGETS "OUT OF ORDER" as soon as his second shot from the 2nd revolver HIT target #2. If he chose to not fire the 5th round from the first revolver, he would have an ADDITIONAL 5-second "miss" penalty for the unfired round: 5/5/4/4/3/2(P)/2/1/1/M The Shooters Handbook says "Proper coaching or no coaching at all is not considered RO Interference and therefore will never be grounds for a reshoot." It does not address Improper Coaching. What's the Call if the TO said "One more" instructing the shooter to fire the unfired round - reshoot or not? What's the call if the TO said nothing, and the shooter responded to 'One more' from a spotter - reshoot or not? IMO...both of those situations would be PROPER coaching from a Range Officer...NO RESHOOT. Should the TO have then instructed the shooter to STOP and not fire the 10th round instead of allowing the shooter to fire that round? NO...That would be considered IMPROPER coaching (Range Officer impeding the shooter's progress resulting in a 5-second penalty) THAT would be grounds for a reshoot, again, IMO. In either case, the shooter learned a lesson about an unfired round in the pistol! Long guns are a different story. This question addresses only the issue of allowing a reshoot or no reshoot for improper coaching. There was no improper coaching...if there had been, it would have been grounds for a reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouchy Spike Posted June 16, 2017 Author Share Posted June 16, 2017 We have The Word. Thanks PWB! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Discussion ensues between the spotters about the penalty with no agreement. The call on a Procedural penalty is a matter for the TO. It is the spotters primary job to call misses and the majority rules and cannot be overruled by the TO. Spotters inform the TO of what they saw (or think they saw)...... The TO makes the call.................... Next shooter. If the spotters don't agree or wish to discuss the call it is taken off the line while another TO fills in. The Match director should not be involved unless the SHOOTER protests the call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Muerto Negro Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 PWB has spoken if you keep on debating well you get it. Thank you PWB EMN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waimea Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 So if you're a Duelist you can pull pistol 1 shoot target 1, holster. Pull pistol 2 shoot target 1, holster. Pull pistol 1 shoot target 2, holster. Pull pistol 2 shoot target 2, holster. Etc Etc until Pistol 2 on target 5. Wow, why don't I ever see THIS at a match? Waimea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 17 minutes ago, Waimea said: So if you're a Duelist you can pull pistol 1 shoot target 1, holster. Pull pistol 2 shoot target 1, holster. Pull pistol 1 shoot target 2, holster. Pull pistol 2 shoot target 2, holster. Etc Etc until Pistol 2 on target 5. Wow, why don't I ever see THIS at a match? Waimea Every category can do that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 You fellers know better than that. ALL of the category shooters can reholster their pistol(s) with a live round still in it and draw them again to finish the stage requirements. BUT, when it comes to those who are shooting GF style, The key word is 'INTENT'. No IN-WIGWAM or IN-TEEPEE. BUT..... 'INTENT'... GF style can not reholster a loaded pistol with the INTENT of engaging targets again..... Shooters Handbook, page 14. EDITED for correction, based on PWB's following post. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 19 minutes ago, Wyatt said: Every category can do that Every category except GUNFIGHTER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 nevermind. I just spilt my jar of marbles on the floor and temporarily lost a couple... ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 10 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: Every category except GUNFIGHTER. Just because you signed up gunfighter doesn't discount shooting a stage double duelist as my famous friend Waimea described Just can't have two loaded pistols out at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Howdy WYATT. You bring up an very interesting thought and observation and I hope PWB addresses it. I must say that in reading the Shooters Handbook, Page 14, on GUNFIGHTERS......that if you sign up for GUNFIGHTER, the resholstering restriction is applicable, even if you decide to shoot the stage DD style. I could give you my reasoning but it won't matter much once PWB give a correct clarification on it. But I'm thinking, based solely on the wording of the rules, the GF can't reholster with the INTENT to engage other targets, even if the GF decides to shoot DD style on a particular stage. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Wiider............... At first I thought the same as PWB.........except GF. I edited my response based on a GF being able to shoot a whole stage DD Should it matter what category you up in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 (clarification) I meant anyone shooting GUNFIGHTER-STYLE. Quote A Gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another revolver sequence. Once cocked, all rounds must be expended prior to holstering unless the revolvers were drawn at the wrong time or a revolver/ammunition malfunction has occurred. SHB p.14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 21 minutes ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said: Howdy WYATT. You bring up an very interesting thought and observation and I hope PWB addresses it. I must say that in reading the Shooters Handbook, Page 14, on GUNFIGHTERS......that if you sign up for GUNFIGHTER, the resholstering restriction is applicable, even if you decide to shoot the stage DD style. I could give you my reasoning but it won't matter much once PWB give a correct clarification on it. But I'm thinking, based solely on the wording of the rules, the GF can't reholster with the INTENT to engage other targets, even if the GF decides to shoot DD style on a particular stage. ..........Widder There are other specific allowances for Gunfighter (category) shooter when shooting "Double Duelist"-Style on that same page in the SHB... e.g. using a double X-draw/butts forward rig (but no simultaneous X-draw when shooting GF-style). To address Waimea's question as to why he never sees "draw/shoot/holster/draw other one/shoot/holster..." for a shooting string... Doing that wouldn't be efficient, nor would it gain the shooter any "style points"...IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Thanks PWB. That helped me understand it better. I knew when I woke up this morning that I would learn something before the sun set..... ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Just one more thing....it's been said several times that the shooter would be assessed a "miss" penalty for the unfired round left in the pistol if he had not fired the 5th round out of the first pistol. Wouldn't it be scored as an unfired round rather than a miss? It still results in a 5 second penalty but it's hard to imagine that a miss would be assessed for a round that was never actually fired. Kajun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 23 minutes ago, Krazy Kajun said: Just one more thing....it's been said several times that the shooter would be assessed a "miss" penalty for the unfired round left in the pistol if he had not fired the 5th round out of the first pistol. Wouldn't it be scored as an unfired round rather than a miss? It still results in a 5 second penalty but it's hard to imagine that a miss would be assessed for a round that was never actually fired. Kajun Yes...that is "technically" correct. "Unfired rounds" are listed under the 5-second penalty section in the RO1. However, the score sheets list all 5-second penalties under "MISSES" as a general practice, with no differentiation between an actual missed target with a fired round, a hit on the wrong type target, or an unfired round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouchy Spike Posted June 18, 2017 Author Share Posted June 18, 2017 Thanks to all who responded and contributed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 On 6/16/2017 at 10:30 AM, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 Regarding the original question, I would have to say that even if the coaching was technically "not improper", it was still not that good of a job of coaching. I wonder why no one said "one more" after those 1st 4 shots as he was holstering. Some real fast guys transition so fast you might not be able to stop them, but probably plenty of time for a newish shooter. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodyMaverick Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 6 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said: Regarding the original question, I would have to say that even if the coaching was technically "not improper", it was still not that good of a job of coaching. I wonder why no one said "one more" after those 1st 4 shots as he was holstering. Some real fast guys transition so fast you might not be able to stop them, but probably plenty of time for a newish shooter. Oh well. After witnessing 3 similar events this weekend, I am wondering just the opposite. On all 3 occasions a traditional shooter had only fired 4 rounds in the first pistol, holstered and drawn the second pistol and several people hollered at the shooter about "one more". In 2 instances the shooter holstered the second pistol and drew the first to fire the last round. In the 3rd instance the shooter just kept the second pistol in his weak hand and drew the first one and fired it one handed. This resulted in the shooter having 2 loaded guns in hand at the same time which would have resulted in a P if the spotters or TO had realized what just happened. (I just now realized it as I was typing this post. It wouldn't have made a difference in this particular case since this shooter already earned is P in the first 4 shots.) At any rate, in each case the shooter's train of thought got derailed by the timing of the "one more" assistance. My thinking now is that it might have been less disturbing to the shooter if the TO waited until they finished with the second pistol and then told them about the extra round in the first pistol. I am just pondering about the affect on the shooter's ability to receive and respond to the new information. As far as the effect in might have on the shooter's score would depend on the actual scenario and what the shooter did with that first shot from the second pistol. (other factors as well) As for myself it does reinforce my preference not to receive any coaching and when I go to big matches I make a point to tell the TO that I don't wish to be coached as it is just as likely to hang me up as help me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 I agree with Cody. Do not coach, unless I specifically asked based on a "strange" Stage scenario. By the time the person trying to coach can get their observation & recommendation from their brain to their mouth, I have cocked another gun. And already earned any penalty. It just makes it worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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