WTC Unfired Round, RO Coaching

[Grouchy Spike]

What's the call here about coaching?

CAS Scenario calls for a double tap sweep of five targets from either end with the pistols. Rifle and shotgun have already been used, pistol sequence is last in the scenario.  New shooter (2nd or 3rd match) chooses to shoot the sequence right to left.  No problem there.  Shooter engages targets 5-5; 4-4 and holsters the first pistol. Target 3 is not engaged, leaving an unfired round in the holstered pistol . Shooter has not cocked  the first pistol after shooting the 4th shot, so the hammer is resting on a fired round  With the second pistol shooter engages targets 3: 2-2; 1-1.  A spotter tells the shooter "One more".  I think that the TO also said "One more" or may have said nothing. Shooter pulls the first pistol with the unfired round and engages target 3, which is the target at which he didn't double tap.  All ten shots have hit the pistol targets but target 3 is not double tapped.  It is hit twice but the scenario required double taps.  Discussion ensues between the spotters about the penalty with no agreement.  Upon review by the Match Director the penalty is a "P" for shooting target 3 out of sequence.

 

The shooter was coached to fire that 10th round in attempt to avoid a miss, and incurred a 10 second penalty instead of a 5 second penalty A penalty could not be avoided in this situation. Had the shooter not fired that unfired 5th shot from the first pistol out of sequence, he would have incurred a miss and not a "P".

 

The Shooters Handbook says "Proper coaching or no coaching at all is not considered RO Interference and therefore will never be grounds for a reshoot."  It does not address Improper Coaching.  What's the Call if the TO said "One more" instructing the shooter to fire the unfired round - reshoot or not?

 

What's the call if the TO said nothing, and the shooter responded to 'One more' from a spotter - reshoot or not? 

 

Should the TO have then instructed the shooter to STOP and not fire the 10th round instead of allowing the shooter to fire that round?

 

In either case, the shooter learned a lesson about an unfired round in the pistol!  Long guns are a different story.  This question addresses only the issue of allowing a reshoot or no reshoot for improper coaching.

[Irish Tom]

If shooter had left the line and proceeded to the unloading table with live round in pistol, he would earnd  a minor safety in addition to the P.

[Two Dot, 14911]

P. Shooter was coached properly. 

Shooters choice on shooting the last round or not. Had they not fired the round it would be a P and miss.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Telling the shooter "One more" is not improper coaching. There was, in fact, one more round that needed to be fired so the TO saved the shooter 5 seconds. The "P" was earned when the 6th round hit a target other than target 3.

 

No improper coaching......no reshoot.

 

Stan 

[Irish Tom]

I believe the P was the correct call.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

1 minute ago, Irish Tom said:

If shooter had left the line and proceeded to the unloading table with live round in pistol, he would earnd  a minor safety in addition to the P.

 

I think you are incorrect.  As long as the hammer is down on a spent round or empty chamber there is no penalty for live rounds left in a pistol other than 5 seconds for each unfired round.

 

Stan

 

[Grouchy Spike]

Grounds for reshoot or not?

[Irish Tom]

9 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

 

I think you are incorrect.  As long as the hammer is down on a spent round or empty chamber there is no penalty for live rounds left in a pistol other than 5 seconds for each unfired round.

 

Stan

 

Stan, you are correct,  I spoke too soon.

[Snakebite]

It is no safety for leaving the stage with a live round in the revolver as long as it is not under the hammer. IMO, the shooter would get the "P" for shooting the targets out of order. Responding to anyone other than the timer operator would not be reason for a restart or a reshoot in this case. If the T.O. was the one that yelled "One More", it would not be incorrect instructions, since the T.O. is not charged directly with watching target sequences, but is directed to count shots. The T.O. heard 9 shots, yelling one more would be an appropriate comment. It is up to the shooter to know that the order was wrong. It is similar to the T.O. telling a shooter to move when a firearm is pulled or shouldered at the wrong position. If that firearm  had been cocked at the wrong location, and the shooter moves with the cocked gun.... the fault is on the shooter. JMHO

 

Snakebite

[Wyatt]

25 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Telling the shooter "One more" is not improper coaching. There was in fact one more that needed to be fired so the TO save the shooter 10 seconds. The "P" was earned when the 6th round hit a target other than target 3.

 

No improper coaching......no reshoot.

 

Stan 

 

I hate to be nitpicky but wouldn't it be just a 5 second penalty for an unfired round?

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

1 minute ago, Wyatt said:

 

I hate to be nitpicky but wouldn't it be just a 5 second penalty for an unfired round?

Crap.....edited

 

Stan

[Irish Tom]

He fired the round, he just hit the target in the wrong order.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

The "P" was not earned when the 10th round hit target 3....When the 6th engaged target was hit and it was not target 3 the P was earned.

 

In the scenario as posted.....No reshoot.

 

Stan

 

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

As STAN stated, the 'P' was earned when the shooter 'fired' the 6th shot on #2.

 

Informing the shooter of the unfired round in his first pistol saved him from an additional 5 second penalty for UNFIRED rounds.

 

There was no improper coaching.

 

And NO RESHOOT is warranted.

 

 

..........Widder

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

One more thing.....just in case someone is wondering:

 

If the 10th shot (which in essence is the 5th round from the 1st pistol) had hit ANY PISTOL target, its scored as a hit because the 'P' had already been earned as stated above.

 

Had the shooter missed a PISTOL target, it would be scored as a miss.

Had the shooter hit ANY other target other than a Pistol target, it would be scored as a miss.

 

 

..........Widder

 

[Cowboy Junky]

He had the choice for a miss in the pistol but the P was earned when he shot target 2

22 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

The "P" was not earned when the 10th round hit target 3....When the 6th engaged target was hit and it was not target 3 the P was earned.

 

In the scenario as posted.....No reshoot.

 

Stan

 

 

+1 pistol strings are 10 shots so if he would have stayed in order and pulled the first pistol out (again) and finished on the right target he would have been good.....no call. As far as "coaching" goes the spotters were correct (he did have one more) and so was the TO in saying nothing. You "hope" the TO does assist you when you flub up but they don't have to OR he may have been confused too........sometimes it happens.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

17 minutes ago, Cowboy Junky said:

 pistol strings are 10 shots so if he would have stayed in order and pulled the first pistol out (again) and finished on the right target he would have been good.....no call. 

 

OR, when the shooter pulled his second pistol, he could have used it to shoot P3, P3, P2, P2, P1   and THEN, pull his first pistol and use the last round in it to engage P1.    This would have not been a penalty, not even a 'P'.

 

..........Widder

 

[Grizzly Dave]

P, no re-shoot.

 

Was running the clock when a shooter had gun problems, when he got that resolved he asked me which target, I told him I don't know, I was watching the guns, he finished the stage and asked for a re-shoot since I couldn't tell him which target was next.  Sorry pard, no reshoot.  He appealed, and of course my call was upheld.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

1 hour ago, Wyatt said:

 

I hate to be nitpicky but wouldn't it be just a 5 second penalty for an unfired round?

Yes! It wasn't under the hammer and is just a miss.

 

If the shooter had picked up target 3 with the second gun and left the last target unshot, the TO could have properly coched the shooter to unholster the first gun and shoot that last target without penalty. In this case, he TO should have kept quiet and let the shooter take the miss. It is also good to understand "A MISS CANNOT CAUSE A PROCEDURAL." This is first seen on page 25 on the ROI.

 

I believe it was improper to coach the shooter from a miss to a P. It shows that the TO did not know the rule. If only a spotter had done the coaching the shooter should have ignored that.  I think the shooter should get a reshoot.  

[Grizzly Dave]

Allie - I think you misread the OP, the shooter earned the P long before that final round was fired.

 

Quote

Shooter engages targets 5-5; 4-4 and holsters the first pistol. Target 3 is not engaged, leaving an unfired round in the holstered pistol . Shooter has not cocked  the first pistol after shooting the 4th shot, so the hammer is resting on a fired round  With the second pistol shooter engages targets 3: 2-2; 1-1. 

 

The P was earned when target 3 was not double tapped between target 4 and 2.

[Griff]

2 hours ago, Grouchy Spike said:

Grounds for reshoot or not?

No.  Coaching was proper.  The "P" was earned with shots 5 & 6 did not hit target three.  TO could have better assisted the shooter when his 6th shot started to swing from target 3 to 2 by telling him to double tap #3.  Thus leaving that 5th shot from the 1st gun for target 1 and completing the sequence correctly.  But... hindsight is 20-20.

[Hoss]

56 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Yes! It wasn't under the hammer and is just a miss.

 

If the shooter had picked up target 3 with the second gun and left the last target unshot, the TO could have properly coched the shooter to unholster the first gun and shoot that last target without penalty. In this case, he TO should have kept quiet and let the shooter take the miss. It is also good to understand "A MISS CANNOT CAUSE A PROCEDURAL." This is first seen on page 25 on the ROI.

 

I believe it was improper to coach the shooter from a miss to a P. It shows that the TO did not know the rule. If only a spotter had done the coaching the shooter should have ignored that.  I think the shooter should get a reshoot.  

In general, I agree with most, the P was earned when he did not double tap #3. But.....I think Miz Allie Mo has a valid point.  Just suppose it was a rifle round he jacked out and did not double tap 3. would have just been a miss at the ends of the string (assuming he did not reload it and go back to target 3)  I think I could argue it both ways!!!!  I'll be glad to see PWB official blue ink response.

[Snakebite]

The T.O. is not required to watch target engagement... it is nice if he/she can help, but counting shots is within the T.O.s capacity. There was nothing wrong with telling the shooter that he had one more shot. Also, as already stated, the shooter earned the "P" when he/she pulled the trigger on the second handgun and shot the wrong target in the shooting string. Just what rule was it that the T.O. did not know?

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

6 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

The T.O. is not required to watch target engagement... it is nice if he/she can help, but counting shots is within the T.O.s capacity. There was nothing wrong with telling the shooter that he had one more shot. Also, as already stated, the shooter earned the "P" when he/she pulled the trigger on the second handgun and shot the wrong target in the shooting string. Just what rule was it that the T.O. did not know?

That a round left in the revolver is only a miss, unless it is under the hammer..

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PS There was no way that round could be shot in this circumstance without earning a P as the third target was skipped.

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

He earned a P by not double tapping target three.  Had the TO not reminded him to fire the 10th round, he would have gotten a P for shooting out of sequence and a miss for leaving a live round in the revolver.  No re-shoot.

[Lodan B. Fast]

I disagree it should only be a miss. Just like a jacked out rifle round. You move on to the next shot. Did he shoot the second pistol in the right order? 3,44,5,5 I think yes. 

1 miss

[Grouchy Spike]

Well, it didn't really matter which pistol put which round on the target did it?  Instructions were double-tap sweep.  Shooter didn't double tap target 3, so the P was earned.  Had he not fired the last round (the 10th) no matter from which pistol, there would have been a miss too.  Gunfighters are usually alternating shots from their two pistols but only the shot sequence and target sequence matter.  Had the shooter been gunfighting, one pistol  (in this case) would have still contained an unfired round.

[Appalachian Alan]

you can't "move on" to the next shot unless you actually tried to shoot.  ( or in case of rifle, jack one out )

 

He holstered.  did not slip hammer and go around or have a DUD.

 

 

if dud, then he would have the "shooter choice"

 

 

[Major BS Walker Regulator]

To answer Grouchy Spike's question, no reshoot. The shooter already earned the P before he finished shooting the second pistol. To go back to the first pistol and shoot the tenth round saved him a 5 sec. penalty which is good unless it took the shooter more than 5 sec. to do this.

Mr. Grouchy, you caught on while I was posting.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

4 hours ago, Grouchy Spike said:

What's the call here about coaching?

CAS Scenario calls for a double tap sweep of five targets from either end with the pistols..    Shooter engages targets 5-5; 4-4 and holsters the first pistol. Target 3 is not engaged, leaving an unfired round in the holstered pistol . With the second pistol shooter engages targets 3: 2-2; 1-1.  A spotter tells the shooter "One more".  I think that the TO also said "One more" or may have said nothing. Shooter pulls the first pistol with the unfired round and engages target 3, which is the target at which he didn't double tap.  All ten shots have hit the pistol targets but target 3 is not double tapped.  It is hit twice but the scenario required double taps.  Discussion ensues between the spotters about the penalty with no agreement.  Upon review by the Match Director the penalty is a "P" for shooting target 3 out of sequence.

 

 

25 minutes ago, Lodan B. Fast said:

I disagree it should only be a miss. Just like a jacked out rifle round. You move on to the next shot. Did he shoot the second pistol in the right order? 3,44,5,5 I think yes. 

1 miss

Howdy,  LBF.. check out the OP again, he hit 10 pistol targets, just the wrong order. He shot it 5-5-4-4-3-2-2-1-1-3. Proper coaching saved him a 5 sec miss, the P was already done on the 6th shot. No reshoot. Good Luck

[Grouchy Spike]

We had several interpretations of the penalty on the stage too.  I hadn't considered that the P and the Miss were separate.  Good thinking by several contributors.

[McCandless]

If the T.O. had said something that was incorrect, there may be grounds for a reshoot.  But, all statements were correct.  Shooter has the responsibility of understanding the course of fire and to shoot the scenario properly.  T.O. is not required to coach, although it is nice.  You earned a P... ( I've earned plenty).  In this case, spotter or T.O. saved you 5 seconds for the unfired round.  No reshoot.

 

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

For your consideration, from the ROI, "Inadvertently leaving unfired rounds in a revolver is a miss unless the round is under the hammer, then it is a Stage Disqualification." I don't see any comments regarding a Procedural and we all know a "miss cannot cause a P."

 

In this case the shooter got the P because the TO told him/her to shoot the missed round.

[Grizzly Dave]

The sequence was a double tap sweep

 

5,5,4,4,3,3,2,2,1,1

 

The shooter shot it

5,5,4,4,3,2,2,1,3 earning the P.

 

Had the shooter NOT fired the last round, it would have been a P AND a miss