Cowboys/Cowgirls - what would attract you to Wild Bunch?

[Ozark Shark]

Have always loved my 1911s, so Wild Bunch was a perfect addition to my CAS shooting.

[John Boy]

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Why is the 16 gauge 1897 not allowed, Dusty? Every WB shooter that I've observed uses light loads so power can't be a factor if that's the argument.

A good question! 

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In addition, Winchester Model 12's are legal shotguns but at the firing line, but the rules for a Model 97 must be followed:

Loaded shotguns must be staged with the muzzle down range, the action closed, the chamber empty, and the hammer either on the safety notch or fully down. (Failure to comply, SDQ)

Shooters using the Model‘12 shotgun must follow this additional safety procedure:Under the direct supervision of the TO/CRO on the firing line,they must point the muzzle in a safe direction and pull the trigger. If the hammer falls, SDQ. Failure to follow this procedure isa SDQ. It is the shooter's responsibility to ensure this procedure is followed before beginning the course of fire

 

 

A shooter cannot at the Loading Table close the forearm on an empty chamber of a Model 12 - pull the trigger and then engage the safety bolt before loading the magazine tube.  The Loading Officer can verify this.Then at the firing line to verify the chamber is empty - disengage the safety bolt, pull the the trigger and the hammer drops indicating an empty chamber.  If one does this ... SDQ

[Dusty Boddems]

JB, the underlined portion at the bottom of your post looks strange and not in the WB rules. Are you stating this or is this a quote? It's impossible to engage the safety on a model 12 with the hammer down. If a model 12 does this a trip to the gunsmith is in order.  Dusty Boddams

[John Boy]

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It's impossible to engage the safety on a model 12 with the hammer down

Dusty - absolutely correct, my error.  Correction made in post

[Tulsey, SASS#11236]

Long before Wild Bunch became official we had Wild Bunch matches at our club.  Shotguns like  97s, model 12s, and any of the Browning A-5/ Rem model 11 type shotguns are period correct and were used.  Lugers, Broomhande Mausers , 1911 and its copies along with double action revolvers were used. It is fun to see how really fast a model 10 S&W can be shot.

 

We shot our matches pretty much like a regular SASS match with 10 pistol shots whether it was a magazine change or two pistols or revolvers. Everything went smoothly with only one thing that really slowed up a match. People shooting pistols, whether 9mm, .30 Luger or .30 Mauser, .45 acp and especially .38 Super wanted their brass back and we spent a lot of time picking up brass.

 

Over the years we switched to .22 Wild Bunch. Same sort of rules on period correct shotguns and appearance correct .22  lever or pump rifles with even a few semi-auto rifles showing up. No brass to pick up, inexpensive to shoot and lots of fun. Has gone over well. You really see how sensitive .22 pistols are for brand preference in ammo and how a single action .22 or old H&R, High Standard .22 revolvers can be competitive using the same 10 pistol shots.

 

I tried a match a while back that was still .22, but was a pretty much copy of a real Wild Bunch match with 20 pistol shots per stage and pretty much one auto with magazine changes, Took forever to do and complaints about it. 

 

In conclusion, I think Wild Bunch went overboard on its pistol, 1911 .45 only, shotgun 12 ga  only 97 or model 12, and .40 caliber or larger rifle requirements. I never understood why with their pistol and shotgun restrictions they did not require a model 92 and maybe a Marlin 94 rifle, but allowed the 66 and 73 with short strokes. It looks like they saw what happened in ammunition in SASS and were going to make sure it did not happen in Wild Bunch  

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

34 minutes ago, Tulsey, SASS#11236 said:

Long before Wild Bunch became official we had Wild Bunch matches at our club.  Shotguns like  97s, model 12s, and any of the Browning A-5/ Rem model 11 type shotguns are period correct and were used.  Lugers, Broomhande Mausers , 1911 and its copies along with double action revolvers were used. It is fun to see how really fast a model 10 S&W can be shot. 

 

We shot our matches pretty much like a regular SASS match with 10 pistol shots whether it was a magazine change or two pistols or revolvers.

 

Yep, that's the way WB used to be.  It was fun.  It was never a problem.  Slight variations along this basic theme did exist from club to club, but it worked.

 

But now here's the real question...

 

How come so many places that used to do it this way "caved in" and just started using the SASS rules?   If this thread has any basis in reality, there is a real preference for the "old" way that used to be done.  Why won't places, especially where it was sucessful, just go back to it?   People who show up with SASS Rules stuff would still be able to play. but then they'd also get to see how much interesting fun can be had when you see someone come to the line with a .45 Broomhandle or a brace of Webley revolvers.

I even occasionally saw folks shoot the match with their regular Cowboy guns, but relished the chance to load up their 97's off the clock and use 'em as they were intended.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Like I wrote, Gold Country WB allows alternate guns at monthly matches. I saw, in the scores, that one shooter shot L49 at the last match. So, I assume she used her SA revolvers.

[Three Foot Johnson]

4 hours ago, Tulsey, SASS#11236 said:

I never understood why with their pistol and shotgun restrictions they did not require a model 92 

 

[Hashknife Cowboy]

I truly enjoy CAS, I shoot classic cowboy for the reason, I like the gun requirements, clothing and equipment.    I have nothing against 1911's actually they are my go to pistol for conceal carry and personal defense.   I carried a 1911 for 16 years in law enforcement and did shoot 3 gun with one.  Nothing against WB it just isn't my cup of tea.  Long live cowboy's.....

[Tequila_Jack]

On 6/14/2017 at 0:48 PM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

The 1911 holds 7 in the mag. The ONLY load 5 deal, goes against all on my  LEO training, and is just plain DUM. 

Same goes to only reloading the 1911 at 'slide-lock'.

The '97 SG was never made to hold 6 shells in the mag. But, to use one in WB, the '97 has to be made to do so.

Why can't other SG gauges be used?

Why the caliber restriction on the rifle?

 

OLG

 

I agree completely with the above.  Loading only 5, reloading only at slide lock, and not using tactical reloads goes against any and all training I've ever had.  I have shot WB a few times and I'm done with it unless some of these things change.  I understand the Wildbunch don't want it to become IPSC but they've carried it too far.  And what's the matter with a 20 gauge Winchester Model 12?  If it doesn't knock the targets down, tough luck on the shooter.  I do like the longer distances as they require a modicum of front sight use and accuracy.  

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

On ‎6‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 5:39 AM, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Yep, that's the way WB used to be.  It was fun.  It was never a problem.  Slight variations along this basic theme did exist from club to club, but it worked.

 

But now here's the real question...

 

How come so many places that used to do it this way "caved in" and just started using the SASS rules?   If this thread has any basis in reality, there is a real preference for the "old" way that used to be done.  Why won't places, especially where it was sucessful, just go back to it?   People who show up with SASS Rules stuff would still be able to play. but then they'd also get to see how much interesting fun can be had when you see someone come to the line with a .45 Broomhandle or a brace of Webley revolvers.

I even occasionally saw folks shoot the match with their regular Cowboy guns, but relished the chance to load up their 97's off the clock and use 'em as they were intended

You mean like THIS ONE?

 

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Pike and his gang will be back at Saddle Butte (Albany Rifle & Pistol Club) for a Wild Bunch shootout featuring SASS Wild Bunch categories along with Turn of the Century Shooting Association® categories.
 
Turn of the Century Shooting Association® (TOCSA™) rules are used as “guidelines.”1 This mostly means that you can’t go wrong following SASS Wild Bunch rules. But TOCSA Open Class can use .38 caliber rifles and TOCSA Wild Bunch Classic category carries a revolver as well as the 1911. This revolver should be a period correct single or double action that is .38 caliber or greater. (S&W Hand Ejector, Model 10, Model 1917's; Colt 38 Army, 1917's, Police Positive or the like.) and fired double action. TOCSA allows all gauges Model 12 & 1897 Winchester shotguns.
 
We have six stages in a match. The stages are long and require more movement and action than usual, wimpy SASS matches. Rifle targets are placed farther out (sight-in your rifle.) Bring plenty of ammunition. The post match meeting will be short. If you need a ribbon to shoot, don’t come.

 

1 Whatever Pike says goes.

 

 

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Special Rules for this match:

• Stages may start with pistol cocked & locked

• The first 1911 magazine may be loaded with up to 7

• Classic can use their second pistol in any way the stage allows

• But-stock match –only missed shotgun activator targets can be  picked up.

 

[Logan Sackett]

I have everything to shoot wild bunch and I like it just fine. The original question was how to attract more people to it.

As mentioned earlier, most shooters (if not all) are from the ranks of CAS, which include a lot of older folks with arthritis, ladies and youngsters.

To make WB shooting more attractive, maybe do away with the power factor, use any caliber 1911 & rifle, limit the round count to 15 pistol with only one mag change,   

shoot the same big, close targets as CAS.  I think modifications along these lines would attract more shooters from CAS.  IPSC, IDPA and 3 gun shooters probably would not be lured to wild bunch unless they are looking for a change of pace. 

Just throwin out ideas...        

LS 

[COLORADO JACKSON]

1 hour ago, Logan Sackett said:

I have everything to shoot wild bunch and I like it just fine. The original question was how to attract more people to it.

As mentioned earlier, most shooters (if not all) are from the ranks of CAS, which include a lot of older folks with arthritis, ladies and youngsters.

To make WB shooting more attractive, maybe do away with the power factor, use any caliber 1911 & rifle, limit the round count to 15 pistol with only one mag change,   

shoot the same big, close targets as CAS.  I think modifications along these lines would attract more shooters from CAS.  IPSC, IDPA and 3 gun shooters probably would not be lured to wild bunch unless they are looking for a change of pace. 

Just throwin out ideas...        

LS 

I agree with this

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

2 hours ago, Logan Sackett said:

I have everything to shoot wild bunch and I like it just fine. The original question was how to attract more people to it.

As mentioned earlier, most shooters (if not all) are from the ranks of CAS, which include a lot of older folks with arthritis, ladies and youngsters.

To make WB shooting more attractive, maybe do away with the power factor, use any caliber 1911 & rifle, limit the round count to 15 pistol with only one mag change,   

shoot the same big, close targets as CAS.  I think modifications along these lines would attract more shooters from CAS.  IPSC, IDPA and 3 gun shooters probably would not be lured to wild bunch unless they are looking for a change of pace. 

Just throwin out ideas...        

LS 

 

If you meant TEN rounds instead of "15 pistol with only one mag change" (i.e. start with 5 loaded and 5 in the second magazine for a reload), wouldn't that end up being "Cowboy Action Shooting with a 1911" ?

Just asking...

[Logan Sackett]

Well, I was thinking a total of 15 with mag change as necessary? 

But yes, it would be a lot like cowboy shooting with a 1911.

Which is why I think it would draw more interest.

I personally don't mind it the way it is, but if you want to attract the rest of the cowboy shooters.......

 

LS

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

14 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

If you meant TEN rounds instead of "15 pistol with only one mag change" (i.e. start with 5 loaded and 5 in the second magazine for a reload), wouldn't that end up being "Cowboy Action Shooting with a 1911" ?

Just asking...

 

 

Well, there are 2 ways to to look at that, assuming the orginal 15 round count and lack of the parenthetical addition...

 

2 7 round magazines starting cocked and locked.  8 + 7 = 15

 

Or, 2 pistols, 3 five round magazines.   Only one of them needs to be reloaded once. 

 

 

And yes PW, I liked the example you gave.    While I never saw one exactly like that, that was part of the beauty of "Classic" Wild Bunch, the club to club differences, which some might say made it too uprredictable, actually created more interesting variations.   When this was the norm, you just checked the club website or called them to make sure you knew what the rules were.  It worked.

 

Or