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Ruination of Gunfighter Category?


Jackalope

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9 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

if the TOs there won't call a P do you think they will call a SOG? 

 

Obviously not.  You seem determined to put words in my mouth.

 

 

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I just called a P for this today at our monthly.  An experienced gunfighter was trying double cocking.  Previously he was an alternate cocker.  He had a stage with several double discharges.  The spotters could not tell how many shots were fired. 

 

I was the TO and gave him the P.  He went back to alternating the rest of the match.  He was very adult about it as all cowboys should be.  

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It appears that some get caught up in the phrase "simultaneous discharge." It doesn't matter whether it was a "simultaneous discharge" to within 47 gazillion decimals places. What matters is when two shots are fired close enough together to be indistinguishable by the human ear. To our ears and brain it appears as a simultaneous discharge. 

 

It baffles me that anyone can fail to see clearly that the rule is intended to insure that shots ARE distinguishable by the human ear. I doubt these same people would be okay with fanning. . .because it also is prohibited. Yet that would be the two handed equivalent of what is being spoken of. For anyone unfamiliar with fast draw exhibition shooting, it's possible, via fanning, to fire two shots that are indistinguishable from one shot by the human ear. Until we have electronic scoring, and we never will, the human ear is what we have.  

 

When I hear a shooter shoot ten rounds that sound like five, I have zero doubt that they did so intentionally. . .and THAT is what I believe this thread is about. 

 

Here's Bob Munden fanning and making two sound like one.

 

 

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15 hours ago, Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 said:

It appears that some get caught up in the phrase "simultaneous discharge." It doesn't matter whether it was a "simultaneous discharge" to within 47 gazillion decimals places. What matters is when two shots are fired close enough together to be indistinguishable by the human ear. To our ears and brain it appears as a simultaneous discharge. 

 

It baffles me that anyone can fail to see clearly that the rule is intended to insure that shots ARE distinguishable by the human ear. I doubt these same people would be okay with fanning. . .because it also is prohibited. Yet that would be the two handed equivalent of what is being spoken of. For anyone unfamiliar with fast draw exhibition shooting, it's possible, via fanning, to fire two shots that are indistinguishable from one shot by the human ear. Until we have electronic scoring, and we never will, the human ear is what we have.  

 

When I hear a shooter shoot ten rounds that sound like five, I have zero doubt that they did so intentionally. . .and THAT is what I believe this thread is about. 

 

Here's Bob Munden fanning and making two sound like one.

 

 

 

 

Buck,

 

How does it look on the timer when the shots are reviewed? I'm asking out of curiosity since I have not witnessed this (Obviously I have not been around much). I'm not suggesting reviewing the shots on the timer should be used for scoring. I'm curious at what point the timer can no longer discern separate shots?

 

Thanks in advance,

SJS

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1 hour ago, San Joaquin Shootist said:

 

 

Buck,

 

How does it look on the timer when the shots are reviewed? I'm asking out of curiosity since I have not witnessed this (Obviously I have not been around much). I'm not suggesting reviewing the shots on the timer should be used for scoring. I'm curious at what point the timer can no longer discern separate shots?

 

Thanks in advance,

SJS

 

SJS, Timers bottom out at about .08 seconds.  Bud and I used to play with that several years ago.  He was able to beat the timer with 2 shots being recorded with just 1 split. I was never that quick, only could get to about .11.

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1 hour ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

SJS, Timers bottom out at about .08 seconds.  Bud and I used to play with that several years ago.  He was able to beat the timer with 2 shots being recorded with just 1 split. I was never that quick, only could get to about .11.

 

Howdy DOC.   ALWAYS glad to see your post and comments.

 

I agree with your assessment of the timer splits.......   .08

Anytime I ever got into that 'Zone' shooting some GF speed runs,  the .08 and greater was all my timer would record.

 

You may not remember, but my last entry into the GF speed videos was for 10 shots at 1.79 seconds.    Shots #7 and 8 were so close together that the timer didn't pick up the shot splits to prove 10 shots were actually fired.

 

..........Widder

 

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4 minutes ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

 

Howdy DOC.   ALWAYS glad to see your post and comments.

 

I agree with your assessment of the timer splits.......   .08

Anytime I ever got into that 'Zone' shooting some GF speed runs,  the .08 and greater was all my timer would record.

 

You may not remember, but my last entry into the GF speed videos was for 10 shots at 1.79 seconds.    Shots #7 and 8 were so close together that the timer didn't pick up the shot splits to prove 10 shots were actually fired.

 

..........Widder

 

Widder, 

You better slow down then, you don't want them to catch fire ;)

JB

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Bob Munden used to use black powder in some of his shells as it helps cover the quick double-tap to make it sound as one shot.  You still have to be fast, but the slight difference in how the powders work will make a difference if there would be a slightly noticeable difference in doing the trick.  Still very impressive!

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I have not seen it on a timer and honestly don't expect to unless I set up a test to do so. My willingness to apply the call is no secret, so it might not be surprising that anyone who is doing it would avoid being on the same posse with me. It has not occurred on a posse of which I am a member, but I have witnessed it. I can only say that while I can distinguish five shots on this well known video of Deuce Stevens, I could not distinguish the two "simultaneous" shots I have witnessed.

 

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1 hour ago, Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 said:

Here's an example of "the gallop" being done extremely well.

 

 

That was impressive!  I couldn't hear or see if any of the spotters caught the miss.

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We had a fast shooter that started gunfighter and double discharged intentionally, then argued that the rules were wrong when we penalized him.  He had other socialization issues as well.  I am sure you have met people like him.  I suggested to him to alternate cock and he would be in the running for any gunfighter match.  This isn't what he wanted.

 

It took some co - match directors from another club to convince him of what to do.  He took his guns over to the gunsmith vendor to be put up for sale and we never saw him again.  The current rule takes care of gunfighter and it is in no danger if that set of rules is enforced.  Thanks to the match directors for doing a good job!

 

Fordyce

 

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1 hour ago, CodyMaverick said:

 

 

That was impressive!  I couldn't hear or see if any of the spotters caught the miss.

As he walked by one spotter had one finger up, near the end of the video.

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I change positions when I spot for super fast shooters.  We have a few in our area that can sound like they are shooting a full auto SA revolver.  Normally, I stand off to the side and listen for the shot, the clang and watch for an impact.  For the abnormally gifted shooters I will stand just behind the shooter completely out of his way, and on the off side from the timer operator. I see what the shooter sees, and his revolvers at the same time.  I can see the recoil, hear the report and see & hear the impact.  This has worked for me to help me to be a better spotter.  The few contested simultaneous discharging that I've seen recorded shot times a fraction off of each other on the timer.  You'd have to define the time difference the shooter would have to delay before the next shot.  I'm not sure how you could do that.  This is a difficult issue that I don't see an easy answer to.  I can't shoot Gunfighter but I'd hate to see us lose the category. 

Cherokee Slim

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On 6/20/2017 at 4:59 PM, Bo Dacious said:

As he walked by one spotter had one finger up, near the end of the video.

 

Aw Poop!  guess it's time to get thicker glasses!

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Let me see if I have this correct:

 

1) The rules say this needs to be a judgement call by the TO. No use of electronic devices or video for calls on rules is allowed.

 

2) Timers cannot measure small enough time increments to be a useful solution anyhow.

 

This reminds me of Umpires calling the strike zone in Major League Baseball. They do their best and everyone learns to live with it:)

 

I still think it would be interesting to see video of the galloping technique and two shots at once using the Clip Shot app.

 

Thanks for the info,

SJS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

                                          

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I think the thread has about run its course, but I thought I'd post this video in which "the gallop" can be more clearly heard because the video is being made at a greater distance from the shooter. I should mention that this shooter shoots as an alternating-cocker by far the majority of the time but has chosen to dedicate enough time practicing "galloping" to be proficient at it for those rare stages where he feels he can "gallop" without fear of missing; big, close, without the targets being spread apart, and minus target orders that would require a lead change. This stage is ideal as a double-tap Nevada sweep. He says he had some inadvertent double discharges while learning and that it's a risk even now. . .therefore he rarely does it. Anyone who has shot with Billy knows that he does just fine alternating. 

 

 

 

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