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Ruination of Gunfighter Category?


Jackalope

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9 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

Based on? 

 

1 minute ago, Russ T. Sites said:

I think he's referring to firing both revolver s at the same time to gain a advantage violating the rules for gunfighter

 

To gain unfair advantage and to intentionally confuse the spotters by willfully violating the rules.

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Just now, JohnHenryQuick said:

 

 

To gain unfair advantage and to intentionally confuse the spotters by willfully violating the rules.

There is no rule against intentionally confusing the spotters. The "to gain a competitive advantage" part would be difficult to prove. Or that it was intentional. Why not just give the penalty the book assigns to his action, not worry about proving intent and ater the third time, he goes home?

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32 minutes ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

The 'to fast to distinguish shot seperation" problem is not unique to gunfighters. There are plenty of two handed shooters that are so fast even better spotters can't count the shots or even distinguish shot order on multiple targets (ie 2-3 sweeps). There's no applicable rule governing that and no penalty for them.

 

There is a rule with applicable penalties for gunfighters. While this may not appear to be fair, there are other categories with requirements that can hinder a shooter's time capacity (ie smoke in BP catergories). 

Bottom line is if you're not prepared to make your shots distinguishable in gunfighter classes (or make sufficient smoke in FCG) you can, and should, be called for it. Maybe not "fair", but 

that's the reality. 

 

You've got three choices. Comply, get penalized, change classes. Not everything that's fun or faster is legal!

 

Note and disclaimer: this is from a FC Gunfighter who used to double cock and loved to fire both pistols at the same time, but had to quit having "fun"!:D

 

Gunfighter is unique because you have two guns out and being used for the same string . you have the possibility to fire both at the same time

 

the problem comes when you doublecock (I doublecock myself at times) it's very easy to get the splits to close

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2 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

There is no rule against intentionally confusing the spotters. The "to gain a competitive advantage" part would be difficult to prove. Or that it was intentional. Why not just give the penalty the book assigns to his action, not worry about proving intent and ater the third time, he goes home?

+1 next shooter

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4 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

There is no rule against intentionally confusing the spotters. The "to gain a competitive advantage" part would be difficult to prove. Or that it was intentional. Why not just give the penalty the book assigns to his action, not worry about proving intent and ater the third time, he goes home?

 

Spirit of the Game can be broadly applied.  We're all taught "don't be a hard-ass" but in the case of a shooter that is known for doing it and continues to do it, then I think it's appropriate.

 

EDIT: Let me add that he has previously been warned...

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1 minute ago, JohnHenryQuick said:

 

Spirit of the Game can be broadly applied.  We're all taught "don't be a hard-ass" but in the case of a shooter that is known for doing it and continues to do it, then I think it's appropriate.

It can not be broadly applied. It is a specific penalty for specific actions and is one of the most difficult to apply. I respectfully suggest that you might look into taking an RO refresher. 

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can't try to confuse the spotters?   better not write a scenario such as engage each target at least once with six targets then... I don't dbl cock, but I relish the idea of confusing everyone!!    call a penalty for confusing the spotters? ha,,,then you my friend are already confused

 

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8 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

It can not be broadly applied. It is a specific penalty for specific actions and is one of the most difficult to apply. I respectfully suggest that you might look into taking an RO refresher. 

 

Aside from having completed RO-II about a month ago, the RO-I handbook clearly states that a Spirit of the Game penalty is to be assessed for "Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a competitive advantage."  By the rules of GF, ALL stages are intended to be fired one shot at a time.

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Let me say I am one of those dastardly double cockers and although I try to slow it down when shooting sequences like Nevada sweeps but it is hard to hold the reins on a set of double taps. I do let the spotters know what I am doing and ask them to listen for the "dings" not the "booms". If a p is called for a double discharge I smile and accept it. It is a risk I take. BUT before you start calling me names go watch Widowmaker Hill's world record GF run , you only hear 8 bangs, and he does not double cock.

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1 minute ago, JohnHenryQuick said:

 

Aside from having completed RO-II about a month ago, the RO-I handbook clearly states that a Spirit of the Game penalty is to be assessed for "Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a competitive advantage."  By the rules of GF, ALL stages are intended to be fired one shot at a time.

And what part of the book allowed for the warning you state would have been given first? Believe it or not, the rules actually work pretty well when they are followed/used as written. You can't, and nobody can, outrun a procedural by getting your splits close enough to become indistinguishable. You would have a hell of a time convincing a MD that it was done to gain a competitive advantage. 

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1 hour ago, JohnHenryQuick said:

 

 

Sounds like Spirit of the Game to me...

 

Hi JohnHenry,

 

My understanding of penalties is that when there is a specific penalty for an action, you do not look elsewhere. The progressive penalty has been defined as how to penalize a GF who does not follow category rules. Ditto other categories not following rules of their category, eg. a BW male not wearing spurs and many more.

 

That keeps things simple.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

And what part of the book allowed for the warning you state would have been given first? Believe it or not, the rules actually work pretty well when they are followed/used as written. You can't, and nobody can, outrun a procedural by getting your splits close enough to become indistinguishable. You would have a hell of a time convincing a MD that it was done to gain a competitive advantage. 

 

 

Obviously it doesn't.  I merely stated that in the unique case of dealing with someone who has a reputation for intentionally doing such things, I think he would deserve a warning once he does it.  If he then continues to do it, he can't say he wasn't warned.  Again, "don't be a hard-ass," but having said that, you cannot let people intentionally flout the rules and gain advantage over those that play by them.  

 

Some shooters really are that fast, but most of us are not.  For the most part, we all know who is and isn't in our respective areas and if you're not sure, then benefit of the doubt applies.  If you ARE sure, then you have to stand up for what you believe is right.

 

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They're some two handed shooters that shoot way faster than the best gfer does iMo i don't spot for them either

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I don't want to try to confuse the spotters, other than having a bit of fun, no good will come of it.

 

I rely on them to verify my hits.  Especially in the case of a dead target or if I should just catch the edge of a target.  

 

I want spotters who really pay attention.  Apparently; I'm not shooting fast enough since they don't seem to have any trouble spotting my misses.  I have gotten away with the occasional P but on balance I've had to accept the occasional P that I was sure I didn't earn.

 

If I'm going to shoot a stage in a way that I think might confuse them I will at least let the TO know what I am about to do and this is also to get confirmation that my approach will be scored as correct per the stage instructions.

 

I have found the opposite is true also.  I'm usually in the first 4 to shoot the stage and then I start spotting.  Very often I have started to call a P on the first shooter I spot for until I realize that I just got confused because they were shooting one pistol at a time and that just looked wrong. :D

 

 

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There is a Timing Operator......

There are three Spotters to assist that Timing Operator.

 

Let the Timing Operator make the call according to what he saw (or didn't see) and the input from the spotters.

 

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Simple solution:

 

Don't allow double cocking.

 

Now you can't double discharge.

 

Way to open Pandora Jackalope's box.:lol:

 

Waimea

 

Edited to include smiley so folks know I am only joking with Jackalope. So please, no hate mail.:P

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While I agree it is entertaining to see a really good GF double cock and fire I absolutely will not spot for a shooter that willingly does this. If I can't hear 10 separate shots and don't see 10 hits I would call a miss. We have a small contingency of these shooters here who argue that it's physically impossible to fire both pistols at the exact same time but to my ears I hear one bang and one clang and I would rather not spot than get into a discussion with them as to why I call misses. 

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The rules don't judge on physical simultaneous discharge.  The argument that "it's physically impossible to fire both pistols at the exact same time" is a red herring.  

 

What the rules DO require is enough time between shots for each spotter to hear distinct shots and spot correct target hit sequences.    And that will vary by each spotter you have on the line.  So you take the agreement that can be reached by at least 2 of your three spotters.   If the GF or fast-dumping two-handed shooter has gone so fast that collectively the spotters have no more than 8 distinguishable shots, and certainty that one shot hit  the wrong target (not in proper sequence), then the call would be "P" - because of failing to keep distinct shots, and also because of the out-of-sequence error.   THAT is the way the rules are now written.

 

And spotters reporting only 8 distinct shots - should also result in a request for the unloading table officer to check that 10 empties come out of the revolvers during unloading.

 

Good luck, GJ

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15 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

As you know, spotting for a fast shooter is tough to do.  This is one of those cases where you just have to do the best you can for each situation and make the call that seems right.

 

I'd like to add one more thing.  A friend of mine is so fast with a SA revolver (shooting with both hands on 1 gun, Traditional style) that he could shoot 2 shots on 2 different targets (both hits) and it sounds like one shot.  Not by fanning, but using normal CAS techniques.  So this is often a judgement call. 

This

13 hours ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

The 'to fast to distinguish shot seperation" problem is not unique to gunfighters. There are plenty of two handed shooters that are so fast even better spotters can't count the shots or even distinguish shot order on multiple targets (ie 2-3 sweeps). There's no applicable rule governing that and no penalty for them.

 

And this;)

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57 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

The rules don't judge on physical simultaneous discharge.  The argument that "it's physically impossible to fire both pistols at the exact same time" is a red herring.  

 

What the rules DO require is enough time between shots for each spotter to hear distinct shots and spot correct target hit sequences.    And that will vary by each spotter you have on the line.  So you take the agreement that can be reached by at least 2 of your three spotters.   If the GF or fast-dumping two-handed shooter has gone so fast that collectively the spotters have no more than 8 distinguishable shots, and certainty that one shot hit  the wrong target (not in proper sequence), then the call would be "2 rounds not fired and a P".   THAT is the way the rules are now written.

 

Good luck, GJ

They can certainly call the P and any misses that they are sure you had, but calling unfired rounds just because they didn't hear them is a bit of a stretch. 

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38 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

They can certainly call the P and any misses that they are sure you had, but calling unforced rounds just because they didn't hear them is a bit of a stretch. 

See the finished post.  Corrected it already.

Thanks, GJ

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13 hours ago, Bo Dacious said:

Let me say I am one of those dastardly double cockers and although I try to slow it down when shooting sequences like Nevada sweeps but it is hard to hold the reins on a set of double taps. I do let the spotters know what I am doing and ask them to listen for the "dings" not the "booms". If a p is called for a double discharge I smile and accept it. It is a risk I take. BUT before you start calling me names go watch Widowmaker Hill's world record GF run , you only hear 8 bangs, and he does not double cock.

Bo is incredible to watch and, I can mostly, spot jim. Bo shoots Outlaw and I think it's a little different. Plus, I've seen him get called for misses he didn't have but I wasn't a spotter. He takes all that in stride. If you're gonna do it, getting bad calls is a risk... don't argue. 

 

Hugs, 

Scarlett

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Seems like these days almost everyone has a smart phone, and maybe of them will do video recording at extremely high frame rates (the iPhone will do 240 FPS). This could settle the question of either the shooter or the targets. There's a reason why many sports have started doing this. 

 

Edit: People have noted below that this is against the rules. 

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I have read all of the situations and explanations and I still will not spot for a double cocker.

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5 minutes ago, Ben Beam said:

Seems like these days almost everyone has a smart phone, and maybe of them will do video recording at extremely high frame rates (the iPhone will do 240 FPS). This could settle the question of either the shooter or the targets. There's a reason why many sports have started doing this. 

There is a very good reason why video is not allowed to be used to make a call. Allowing it would be a disaster for the sport. 

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10 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

There is a very good reason why video is not allowed to be used to make a call. Allowing it would be a disaster for the sport. 

My bad, I hadn't seen this rule. Turns out it's in the ROII handbook, where they explain the reason for it: "Remember, the benefit of the doubt ALWAYS goes to the shooter."

 

That single sentence pretty much makes this entire discussion a bit pointless, doesn't it? Seems to me that their idea is to encourage more people to participate than to strictly enforce the rules (a refusal to allow alternative methods to prove the rules are being followed indicates to me that the rules aren't really that important).

 

This isn't a criticism of the rules, just an observation. 

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As a gunfighter it really bothers me when others do that and I let them know it. Nicely of course. Best for us to self police. I will do it occasionally but only by accident and I tell others on my posse that haven't shot with me before the match gets started that I never do it on purpose. Now those shooting Outlaw (not an official SASS) category CAN do it. I have no problem with that as they get plenty of misses anyway. By the way, no gunfighters at WR were double discharging. At least I didn't hear any and I'm sort of tuned into the sound. Part of the problem counting for us is that we all have a different cadence no matter what our cocking styles are. Gunfighters rule! Let Classic Cowboys shoot gunfighter and I'm in! Do it. Do it now!

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5 minutes ago, Ben Beam said:

My bad, I hadn't seen this rule. Turns out it's in the ROII handbook, where they explain the reason for it: "Remember, the benefit of the doubt ALWAYS goes to the shooter."

 

That single sentence pretty much makes this entire discussion a bit pointless, doesn't it? Seems to me that their idea is to encourage more people to participate than to strictly enforce the rules (a refusal to allow alternative methods to prove the rules are being followed indicates to me that the rules aren't really that important).

 

This isn't a criticism of the rules, just an observation. 

It's not that they don't want the rules enforced. A match would take 5 times as long if we had to review the video for every call. 

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2 hours ago, Palmetto Traveler said:

While I agree it is entertaining to see a really good GF double cock and fire I absolutely will not spot for a shooter that willingly does this. If I can't hear 10 separate shots and don't see 10 hits I would call a miss. We have a small contingency of these shooters here who argue that it's physically impossible to fire both pistols at the exact same time but to my ears I hear one bang and one clang and I would rather not spot than get into a discussion with them as to why I call misses. 

Your method of determining "misses" is incorrect.

 

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37 minutes ago, Ben Beam said:

Seems like these days almost everyone has a smart phone, and maybe of them will do video recording at extremely high frame rates (the iPhone will do 240 FPS). This could settle the question of either the shooter or the targets. There's a reason why many sports have started doing this. 

 

The use of recorded audio, video, or still photography cannot be used to make or challenge the call of Posse or Match Officials.

 

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5 hours ago, Rock Rotten said:

 Now those shooting Outlaw (not an official SASS) category CAN do it.

That is a common misunderstanding of the Outlaw category.  I agree that it has become common practice. Apparently somewhere along the way some perceived the use of the word outlaw to imply that they don't follow rules. . .period. That is not the case as all SASS rules are to apply.  The only difference is they are to shoot one handed, either gunfighter, duelist or double duelist style from the hip as well doing the same with their shotgun. I invite anyone who believes this to be incorrect to talk to the granddaddy of Outlaw style shooting, the man who started it all, Tennessee Tombstone. While I'm sure TT would be happy to hear from anyone and everyone, I'll make it easy on him and post a link to the The Outlaw Rules.

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