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Ruination of Gunfighter Category?


Jackalope

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Another thread touches on this subject, but let's give the "Gunfighter Double-Tap", aka simultaneous discharging, a headline of its own.

 

According to SASS gunfighter rules, "...both revolvers may be cocked at the same time, but must be shot one at a time to facilitate scoring".  An argument, according to some, is that since a shooter cannot fire both guns *exactly* at the same instant, they are not breaking the rule.  The opposing argument says that even if shots are not exactly simultaneous, double discharges do not allow sufficient time to confirm hits/misses or proper order of target engagement.  Some might ask how much separation is required between shots to be legal.  Others might even suggest finding better counters.  You have to be a pretty good counter to keep up with an ultra-fast shooter, but face it, even the very best counters can't look in two places at the same time.

 

There are some folks around here who can put on impressive demonstrations of double-discharging that are very entertaining.  They don't care about target order, will happily call a P on themselves, and the last thing they are seeking is a competitive advantage.  They are having fun and the posse hoots and hollers when they put on their show.  It's hard to penalize that with "shooting out of category" progressive Ps.  

 

But, there are some gunfighters, in my opinion, who use double-discharging to take advantage of the "shooter gets the benefit of doubt" concept of scoring.  Counters, unable to watch two targets at the same time, and often unable to tell if targets were hit/missed(?) in order, frequently shrug and say, "Uh, I dunno for sure...so, I'll call it clean."  In addition to not getting called for misses or Ps, I don't think I've ever seen anyone penalized for shooting out of category for this, despite what appear to be flagrant violations.  It's hard to penalize these shooters because there is no clear cut way to define "one at a time to facilitate scoring".  The "Gunfighter Double-Tap" is not unique to East Tennessee, it happens on the east coast, west coast and in between.  I understand that some popular shooters have been doing this for a while, and not getting called on it.  Maybe people hesitate to challenge well-known competitors outright.

 

I'm not sure the "crowd-pleasers" previously mentioned are causing any harm to the game, but the others are taking the game down a slippery slope.  I really hope it doesn't result in wrecking a category I've enjoyed for many years.

 

So...what is the official application for this SASS rule?  What is the definition of "one at a time to facilitate scoring" and how can it be applied uniformly?

 

Regards,

Jackalope

Jedi Gunfighter Lucky #7

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And that's why I hand off spotter duties to someone else rather than spot for some gunfighters.  One shooter I tried to spot for shot so fast that, several times during a two day match, I could not hear 10 distinct shots when he shot his pistols.  After the first time of looking like a fool when I called out for one more shot after his pistol string I just stopped spotting for him.  I'd have bet cash money he only fired 9 shots.  He's a great guy and, obviously, a very fast shooter, I just won't spot for him.  Plus I can't watch two targets on opposite ends of a row of targets to see if both got hit.

 

Sorry, I don't know how to fix the problem other than to find a spotter that can hear and see better than I.

 

Angus

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We have several extremely fast Gunfighters at our home club and Yes they are Very Difficult to count for.

And there are several people that will not attempt to count when one of them comes to the line.

 

I don't shy away from counting for them, but I don't relish it either.

I just do the best I can and let the chips fall where they may........

Other than instituting "instant replay" I dont know what else could be done.

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Per shb gunfighters are not allowed to fire both pistols at the same time, if it's happening it should be called. It is difficult to spot for any fast shooter. Focus more on the target impact and where it hits the dirt after , your hearing should be secondary to your eyes when spotting.

 

There's nothing wrong with handing the spotter stick off 

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1 hour ago, Jackalope said:

 

So...what is the official application for this SASS rule?  What is the definition of "one at a time to facilitate scoring" and how can it be applied uniformly?

 

 

Great question, can't wait to see the answer(s).

 

I'm really glad you started this as I've been struggling with it myself since a recent state match where we had one on our posse doing this.  I am certain he was not trying get by with anything, he told me that he was at WR this year and a lot of GFs were shooting this way and it is very fast.  This particular guy got nailed with a couple of Ps and a number of misses but he may have had more that we just couldn't be sure of.  There were a few occasions where the two shots were so close that it sounded like one report and because I had the same questions as you on this, I just let it go and so did everyone else.

 

I can't think of any good answers to the questions but my feeling is that if someone decides to use this method to gain a scoring advantage, they may very well walk away with a trophy, belt buckle, piece of wood but will ultimately walk away alone because they will end up losing the only thing of real value any of us can get from this game.  The respect and friendship of our fellow players.     so; this may just work itself out.

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I have shot gungfighter exactly once.   I may do it again someday, but I don't know.   On the first string, I cocked both revolvers, and accidentally fired them both at the same time.  From then on out, I went left cock fire, right cock fire, and never had another double discharge.   But that's me.  I am sure there are plenty of gunfighter who can double cock and single fire with no problem.

 

But what about those who are deliberately double discharging?

 

How's this for a solution.


Once is an accident,

Twice is a cooincidence

Three times is a habit.

 

If in the the opinion of the Posse Marshal/spotters/timers/everyone else, the gunfigher is deliberatley double discharging, tell them after the second time that with the thrid and every subsequent occuance the will be a Spirit of the Game penalty.

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4 minutes ago, Russ T. Sites said:

Per shb gunfighters are not allowed to fire both pistols at the same time, if it's happening it should be called. It is difficult to spot for any fast shooter. Focus more on the target impact and where it hits the dirt after , your hearing should be secondary to your eyes when spotting.

 

There's nothing wrong with handing the spotter stick off 

 

The spotter that cares enough that the job be done right to think of handing the stick off is showing the exact kind of character that makes me want them to hang on to it.

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5 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

I have shot gungfighter exactly once.   I may do it again someday, but I don't know.   On the first string, I cocked both revolvers, and accidentally fired them both at the same time.  From then on out, I went left cock fire, right cock fire, and never had another double discharge.   But that's me.  I am sure there are plenty of gunfighter who can double cock and single fire with no problem.

 

But what about those who are deliberately double discharging?

 

How's this for a solution.


Once is an accident,

Twice is a cooincidence

Three times is a habit.

 

If in the the opinion of the Posse Marshal/spotters/timers/everyone else, the gunfigher is deliberatley double discharging, tell them after the second time that with the thrid and every subsequent occuance the will be a Spirit of the Game penalty.

Or, and I know this sounds crazy... we could just apply the penalty that the rule book assigns to that particular action. 

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1 minute ago, Smokestack said:

Or, and I know this sounds crazy... we could just apply the penalty that the rule book assigns to that particular action. 

+1. (I used my 24 likes on the reputation thread :o)

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like any other rule,,, make the call. period... as a TO or spotter if someone does it, it will be called.  really pretty simple,,, you cud actually call a P and 5 misses easily if you only cud see 5 hits,,,

 

and for those who don't want to spot for a quick gf,,,, I have a harder time spotting for a very quick two handed shooter than any gf I know,,,

 

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From some of the replies, Maybe we're talking about 2 different things here.... 

 

If you can Hear 10 distinct discharges from 2 pistols during a string, then the Shooter Is Not double discharging.

And what he's doing is perfectly Legal under the rules !!!!!!

 

The problem is that some of the Really Fast Gunfighters are So Fast that it becomes Very Difficult for spotters to follow them.

The noise from the 2nd shot drowns out the ding you would normally hear from the 1st shot and the 3rd drowns out the 2nd and so on.

Then add to that, many times the targets are separated, so that by the time the spotters eyes get to the other target its too late to see a hit.

By the time a very few seconds have passed the shooter is done with the pistols & the Spotter has no idea if there were any misses or not.

 

No rule was broken, Benefit to the Shooter.... Clean !!

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Howdy Jackalope!  Been a while.  I hope you and Anita are doing well.

 

Starting from the premise that the reason for the rule is to make it possible for spotters to see each hit on a target, and in the case that you mention the 2 shots sound as one....  My take on this is that if spotters can't see the hits on targets because the shots are way too close together, than call the penalty for failing to adhere to category rules.  But it's a fine line, and a judgement call.  The shooter can always appeal.  Another option is to get the MD to come watch the shooter and make the call. 

 

As you know, spotting for a fast shooter is tough to do.  This is one of those cases where you just have to do the best you can for each situation and make the call that seems right.

 

I'd like to add one more thing.  A friend of mine is so fast with a SA revolver (shooting with both hands on 1 gun, Traditional style) that he could shoot 2 shots on 2 different targets (both hits) and it sounds like one shot.  Not by fanning, but using normal CAS techniques.  So this is often a judgement call. 

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Doc, Good to see you back, It's been a long time!

 

But... If its a "judgement" call, then that means there is some doubt!

 

And You Know what That means.... Benefit of a doubt goes to the Shooter!

 

Actually its Very Simple....

If you hear 10 shots then its Not Double Discharging and you cant penalize a shooter for being Too Fast !

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9 minutes ago, Silver Sam, SASS #34718L said:

Doc, Good to see you back, It's been a long time!

 

But... If its a "judgement" call, then that means there is some doubt!

 

And You Know what That means.... Benefit of a doubt goes to the Shooter!

 

Actually its Very Simple....

If you hear 10 shots then its Not Double Discharging and you cant penalize a shooter for being Too Fast !

 

It's still a judgement call.  Not everyone hears the same.  All we can do is the best that we can and own up to it when we screw up.  And I've screwed up a lot.

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9 minutes ago, Silver Sam, SASS #34718L said:

Doc, Good to see you back, It's been a long time!

 

But... If its a "judgement" call, then that means there is some doubt!

 

And You Know what That means.... Benefit of a doubt goes to the Shooter!

 

Actually its Very Simple....

If you hear 10 shots then its Not Double Discharging and you cant penalize a shooter for being Too Fast !

I think he means that it is a judgement call in that there is no set threshold of a split that would be too fast. If the spotters or TO can't distinguish the shots, the penalty should be awarded. 

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If you want to use the word judgement then its OK with me....

 

But when you're a spotter on a posse at EOT and you tell the Posse Marshall its your "considered opinion"

that the shooter had a miss, you'll probably get overruled ;)

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Just now, Silver Sam, SASS #34718L said:

If you want to use the word judgement then its OK with me....

 

But when you're a spotter on a posse at EOT and you tell the Posse Marshall its your "considered opinion"

that the shooter had a miss, you'll probably get overruled ;)

Nobody is allowed to overrule a spotter when they call a miss. Just sayin'. 

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13 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

I think he means that it is a judgement call in that there is no set threshold of a split that would be too fast. If the spotters or TO can't distinguish the shots, the penalty should be awarded. 

 

Exactly

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"Nobody is allowed to overrule a spotter when they call a miss. Just sayin'."

 

It happens all the time if the spotter is Not Sure!

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What do I know about what's practical at my stage, but I am thinking you could respray the targets for each Gunfighter so you can score the hits accurately rather than rely on hearing,

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There's two problems as gunfighters keep getting better, and stage writers keep writing more possible flexibility into stage descriptions.

 

First - splits too short to distinguish the number of shots fired.   The electronic timers, last time we did a survey here, normally start having problems at about 0.10 second splits, IIRC.  The human ear can usually do better than that, but only if the spotter CAN HEAR well.

 

Second - splits too short to tell if the proper target sequence was followed.  This is made harder when there are multiple variations that would be legal to engage the targets (like a 10 shots on 6 targets, at least one each).  For a complicated sequence, it can be hard for LOTS of folks to be sure of a legal sequence being shot, even at 0.20 second splits, in my experience.

 

Good luck, GJ 

 

We COULD go to:

* "no round-count" and "no complex sweeps" and "no shooter's choice" revolver strings (ugh)

* require all big matches to buy equipment and software and training enough pards to slow motion video the fast shooters and take time to do instant replays (double ugh)

* shoot all-knockdowns on revolvers (triple ugh)

* different rule sets for gunfighters (which we really already have, a little bit of)

* painting revolver targets before every fast shooter (to be fair, before EVERY shooter) - this certainly helps on spotting misses - but does not help on sequence!

 

Someone best come up with a foolproof cheap solution, because we are at the point where we are needing something more than a shoulder shrug, glazed-over eyes, and a "Looked OK by me" 

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Hi Jackalope!

 

Thanks for bringing this up. The first time I saw double discharging, or rather heard it, I thought it was five misses as I only heard/saw five shots. It was at an away-from-home annual.

 

I was told the shooter always does that as he thinks it's fun to confuse the counters. I said, then it is a P for shooting at the same time. I was told it wasn't by people from that club. I knew I was right but let it drop rather than argue a losing battle. When you are the only one making a call, you won't get far. BTW, I like him. Unfortunately, he was the PM.

 

 I am totally disgusted that this is still going on. If it's a rule, it needs to be followed. Or, lobby to change the rule. Until the rule is changed, it should be enforced.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

PS Give my :wub: to Anita!

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5 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Hi Jackalope!

 

Thanks for bringing this up. The first time I saw double discharging, or rather heard it, I thought it was five misses as I only heard/saw five shots. It was at an away-from-home annual.

 

I was told the shooter always does that as he thinks it's fun to confuse the counters. I said, then it is a P for shooting at the same time. I was told it wasn't by people from that club. I knew I was right but let it drop rather than argue a losing battle. When you are the only one making a call, you won't get far. BTW, I like him. Unfortunately, he was the PM.

 

 I am totally disgusted that this is still going on. If it's a rule, it needs to be followed. Or, lobby to change the rule. Until the rule is changed, it should be enforced.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

PS Give my :wub: to Anita!

 

 

Sounds like Spirit of the Game to me...

 

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Both  revolvers  may  be  cocked  at  the  same  time,  but  must  be  shot  one  at  a  time  to  facilitate scoring. 

 

If you can't score it because of a double discharge, it's a penalty ,  the key word in the shb is MUST

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2 hours ago, CodyMaverick said:

 

The spotter that cares enough that the job be done right to think of handing the stick off is showing the exact kind of character that makes me want them to hang on to it.

Thank you, Jackalope for putting your neck out. I had this conversation with another JEDI Gunfighter in the last few weeks.

 

In clubs where there aren't many Gunfighters just shooting Gunfighter is confusing to some spotters. That was the case at a state match I attended recently. I was the lone GF on my posse. If I was shooting a scenario a little differently than most, I alerted the TO and Spotters as to what I was going to do. Because sometimes the TO doesn't know that GF can do somethings... 1-3-2-3-1 for instance.

 

My issue is this: benefit of the doubt will go to the doublecocking GF with Championship buckles and a degree of "fame" whereas a GF with less "fame" or renown will be far less likely to get said benefit. I do agree that it is, largely, being done legitimately with some bad apples in the bunch. I think I'm an excellent spotter for GF and traditional shooters and do not like to spot for doublecocking GF... I can tell something was not right in the string but if I can't say what's NOT right - like 4th shot right Pistol... then I will be overruled. 

 

Cody's comment that I quoted above is right on. It's a matter of integrity. If you walk away with a clean match button or champion buckle knowing you "gamed" the system, well ok. It's not the cowboy way for me. 

 

Scarlett Darlin'

JEDI Gunfighter #235

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I have the best seat in the house when I'm shooting and I can't see the bullets hit the target for the smoke.  I'm sure the spotters rely on sound.  I'm sure there are errors made both for and against me shooting Frontier Cartridge gunfighter.   

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The 'to fast to distinguish shot seperation" problem is not unique to gunfighters. There are plenty of two handed shooters that are so fast even better spotters can't count the shots or even distinguish shot order on multiple targets (ie 2-3 sweeps). There's no applicable rule governing that and no penalty for them.

 

There is a rule with applicable penalties for gunfighters. While this may not appear to be fair, there are other categories with requirements that can hinder a shooter's time capacity (ie smoke in BP catergories). 

Bottom line is if you're not prepared to make your shots distinguishable in gunfighter classes (or make sufficient smoke in FCG) you can, and should, be called for it. Maybe not "fair", but 

that's the reality. 

 

You've got three choices. Comply, get penalized, change classes. Not everything that's fun or faster is legal!

 

Note and disclaimer: this is from a FC Gunfighter who used to double cock and loved to fire both pistols at the same time, but had to quit having "fun"!:D

 

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This is very common on double tap sweeps but as stated by the OP, rarely called.  I usually to a double tap making up comstock sg targets just for my own fun.  Most times it sounds like a burp.  Everyone knows something happened but aren't quite sure what it was. 

 

When shooting GF, I don't double because it's hard enough to hear a soft .36 ball hit when fired solo and it isn't in the spirit of the game.  Too many folks rely on the ears more than their eyes so I get called misses on dead targets so why make it worse. 

 

Enforce the rule and stand tall.  If the PM wants to negate the call, then it may be time to shag brass.  

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5 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

Based on? 

I think he's referring to firing both revolver s at the same time to gain a advantage violating the rules for gunfighter

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