Hanso Lowe Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Alrighty. Got my Pioneer Gun Works super short stroke kit, lightened firing pin extension, action springs, aluminum carrier, slix trigger and slix firing pin installed. Now it slam fires when cycled aggressively. If I ease the lever closed the hammer will stay back, but that is the opposite of what I want. Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Some of the common causes - Light mainspring tension Badly angled (negative engagement) or too small an engagement of upper trigger (on most guns it would be labeled a sear) to hammer full cock notch Rounded tip on sear In any case, gun is unsafe to shoot. Repair it. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 As Joe said. A trigger sear problem that needs repair. You can try to put more hammer spring pressure, but that should NOT be needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Quote Now it slam fires Your gun is not displaying what is meant by "slam fire." You have a malfunctioning fire control group. Good luck, GJ Just for grins, what's the trigger pull measure now? Before you launch into a repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanso Lowe Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 38 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: Your gun is not displaying what is meant by "slam fire." You have a malfunctioning fire control group. Good luck, GJ Just for grins, what's the trigger pull measure now? Before you launch into a repair. Yeah I didn't think it was an actual slam fire but it was the best way to describe what it was doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanso Lowe Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 It didn't have this problem before adding new parts. I tried putting the original trigger back in. Same thing. I put the original firing pin extension back in. Same thing. I did lighten the mainspring. After I discovered the issue and before I replaced the original trigger, I polished the hammer where the sear contacts and squared the notch to make sure it had good contact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodyMaverick Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 31 minutes ago, Hanso Lowe said: It didn't have this problem before adding new parts. I tried putting the original trigger back in. Same thing. I put the original firing pin extension back in. Same thing. I did lighten the mainspring. After I discovered the issue and before I replaced the original trigger, I polished the hammer where the sear contacts and squared the notch to make sure it had good contact. This is probably just a dumb question as I don't know that it would create your symptoms, but... Are you certain the trigger/sear spring is installed correctly? i.e. is it putting signification tension on the trigger/sear to keep it engaged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 42 minutes ago, Hanso Lowe said: After I discovered the issue and before I replaced the original trigger, I polished the hammer where the sear contacts and squared the notch to make sure it had good contact. Having an incorrect angle will result in the hammer falling when it should not. It may be that when you "squared the notch" that you changed the angle enough to cause problems. Once you get the angle and contact correct, it is a good idea to harden that part of the hammer to reduce wear than may recreate the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanso Lowe Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 5 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said: Having an incorrect angle will result in the hammer falling when it should not. It may be that when you "squared the notch" that you changed the angle enough to cause problems. Once you get the angle and contact correct, it is a good idea to harden that part of the hammer to reduce wear than may recreate the problem. I didn't do that until after I had the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanso Lowe Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 20 minutes ago, CodyMaverick said: This is probably just a dumb question as I don't know that it would create your symptoms, but... Are you certain the trigger/sear spring is installed correctly? i.e. is it putting signification tension on the trigger/sear to keep it engaged? I removed the trigger but not the sear when I put the new Slix trigger in. It may have moved a bit. I will check that first. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Take out hammer. Lay a straight edge from center of hammer pin hole to the tip of the full cock notch (farthest point out on the notch). If any part of the full cock ledge is "leading the tip" as you slowly rotate the hammer as if it were falling, you have a negative angle of engagement, which means only a very slight bit of vibration will let the sear tip slip off the ledge and the hammer falls. The sear tip should be flat and fit together into the hammer full cock notch at exactly the same angle as the notch itself. You can use the outside of the frame as a "jig", putting the hammer pin and the trigger pin in through their parts and holding upper trigger piece against the lower trigger. If you need to, rubber-cement the upper and lower trigger together temporarily. Sear tip should be flat across, with a VERY slight relief bevel on the trailing edge of the tip to let it break cleanly. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 5 hours ago, Hanso Lowe said: It didn't have this problem before adding new parts. I tried putting the original trigger back in. Same thing. I put the original firing pin extension back in. Same thing. I did lighten the mainspring. After I discovered the issue and before I replaced the original trigger, I polished the hammer where the sear contacts and squared the notch to make sure it had good contact. The more you lighten the main spring the lighter the trigger gets. IMO that has to the issue because the Slix Trigger uses the same sear. So if you tighten it back up it will probably not fall. That said obviously it's pretty worn and should just be replaced if you have to turn up the main spring to make it hold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothill Bandit, SASS# 48598 Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 6 hours ago, Hanso Lowe said: I removed the trigger but not the sear when I put the new Slix trigger in. It may have moved a bit. I will check that first. Thanks. PM sent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bob #61228 Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 When the rifle is cocked, can you push on the hammer and make it fall? If so, you have a trigger, sear problem. On the 73, the sear is part of the hammer. I had the same problem on mine and Joe West fixed it right up while sitting at my campsite at the Ga. match. Not a hard fix but you've got to know what you're doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 2 hours ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said: When the rifle is cocked, can you push on the hammer and make it fall? If so, you have a trigger, sear problem. On the 73, the sear is part of the hammer. I had the same problem on mine and Joe West fixed it right up while sitting at my campsite at the Ga. match. Not a hard fix but you've got to know what you're doing. The sear is not part of the hammer. They are two different pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mink Shoals Bandit, #49388 Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 15 hours ago, Hanso Lowe said: After I discovered the issue and before I replaced the original trigger, I polished the hammer where the sear contacts and squared the notch to make sure it had good contact. Look here.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bob #61228 Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 8 hours ago, Smokestack said: The sear is not part of the hammer. They are two different pieces. My understanding is he replaced the original two piece trigger with a one piece trigger. The sear is now part of the trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palo Verde, SASS # 56522 Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 Sometimes an education can be costly. I know the satisfaction you can get from doing it yourownself, but sometimes it is best to just take it to someone who already has the education. You might consider taking it to a gumsmith to fix-up. there is a reason they can charge money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodyMaverick Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 54 minutes ago, Palo Verde, SASS # 56522 said: Sometimes an education can be costly. I know the satisfaction you can get from doing it yourownself, but sometimes it is best to just take it to someone who already has the education. You might consider taking it to a gumsmith to fix-up. there is a reason they can charge money. Absolutely!! Being an obsessive tinkerer I have learned a lot from working on my own stuff but the most valuable thing I've learned is that a good gunsmith is both priceless and not very expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanso Lowe Posted June 6, 2017 Author Share Posted June 6, 2017 Yes I agree that a gunsmith is the best route to go...if I can't figure it out. Which is why I am asking for ideas on how to fix it. If I don't try myself then I'll never learn. I am better than the average guy at fixing things because I don't call in a professional first. And, since the consensus is that it is a sear problem, I will be sending it off. And it hasn't cost anything extra to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 I once had someone ask me , "what does it take to become a professional Gunsmith?" the answer is, " You can go to the schools, buy the books and all the tools. But, the reality is it is a series of expensive mistakes you hope to never repeat ! " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodyMaverick Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 5 hours ago, Hanso Lowe said: Yes I agree that a gunsmith is the best route to go...if I can't figure it out. Which is why I am asking for ideas on how to fix it. If I don't try myself then I'll never learn. I am better than the average guy at fixing things because I don't call in a professional first. And, since the consensus is that it is a sear problem, I will be sending it off. And it hasn't cost anything extra to learn. By all means you should try to be familiar with your equipment. I am very familiar with mine and have been accused of sleeping with them which I refuse to confirm or deny. I also recognize my limitations which are usually some combination of Tools, Talent, and Experience. In your particular case I can only suggest that you keep live ammo away from it until you are sure you have it resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 12 hours ago, CodyMaverick said: By all means you should try to be familiar with your equipment. I am very familiar with mine and have been accused of sleeping with them which I refuse to confirm or deny. That brings back memories of my first gun. A Savage Mod 24 I got for my 12th birthday. And yes, I did sleep with it that night ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanso Lowe Posted June 7, 2017 Author Share Posted June 7, 2017 Got it fixed. It was in fact a problem with the notch on the hammer that the sear rests on. Now I need to figure out why the firing pin extension seems to be hanging up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Glad you got that part working! Could you elaborate about how it is hanging up, when in the cycle, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 If you removed too much material from the hammer, you will lower the full cock position of the hammer and can cause it to bind on the FPE when starting to close the action. Try holding the hammer all the way back while cycling the lever and see if it still hangs up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanso Lowe Posted June 7, 2017 Author Share Posted June 7, 2017 4 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said: Glad you got that part working! Could you elaborate about how it is hanging up, when in the cycle, etc? Yeah it's when the gun is ready to fire. Hammer is back(Finally), and bolt is forward. Seems to be under tension where the firing pin extension rides. I've polished that area but it didn't help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 8 minutes ago, Hanso Lowe said: Yeah it's when the gun is ready to fire. Hammer is back(Finally), and bolt is forward. Seems to be under tension where the firing pin extension rides. I've polished that area but it didn't help. Is that with at least an empty case in the chamber? The FPE can bind without a case to help support the front of the bolt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanso Lowe Posted June 8, 2017 Author Share Posted June 8, 2017 I figured it out. The "scratch & dent" firing pin extension I got from PGW has a lip that was getting wedged in the bolt on the retaining pin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 That's neat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 44 minutes ago, Hanso Lowe said: I figured it out. The "scratch & dent" firing pin extension I got from PGW has a lip that was getting wedged in the bolt on the retaining pin If that's the hollowed out light weight one, I would reccomend fitting the original one so that it works correctly and keep it with you. That light weight one will break. Seen way too many of them do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanso Lowe Posted June 8, 2017 Author Share Posted June 8, 2017 Good idea. I actually put the original back in for now. I will eventually put it back in. I have a combination cleaning kit/repair kit with all of the original parts that I take to matches. I filed and polished the part that I think was the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothill Bandit, SASS# 48598 Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 On 6/6/2017 at 6:21 AM, Badlands Bob #61228 said: My understanding is he replaced the original two piece trigger with a one piece trigger. The sear is now part of the trigger. He replace the lower portion of the trigger with a SliXtrigger, not the sear. The SliXtrigger maintains the original two-piece trigger/sear configuration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackaroo, # 29989 Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 22 hours ago, Smokestack said: If that's the hollowed out light weight one, I would reccomend fitting the original one so that it works correctly and keep it with you. That light weight one will break. Seen way too many of them do it. Quite right, the lightweight ones are hollowed out with just a plug in the end. They bend ever so slightly, you can't even see it. I tried them, didn't work after a while and put the original solid one back in. At the end of the day they don't help at all I've found. I don't think even if you're Smokestack it will make it a milli second quicker. Just a gimmick I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bob #61228 Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 52 minutes ago, Boothill Bandit, SASS# 48598 said: He replace the lower portion of the trigger with a SliXtrigger, not the sear. The SliXtrigger maintains the original two-piece trigger/sear configuration. Ok. I stand corrected. I was thinking he had replaced it with a one piece trigger. Mine need a little adjustment with a stone before it would hold the hammer back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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