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Hoss

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I know we have discussed this in the past, but this one has a slightly different wrinkle.

 

with pistols, knock down 6 plates then put remaining rounds on dump target. reload 1 and shoot bonus target. (shooter may reload anytime after beep, bonus target must be engaged)

 

shooter shoots 5, then with 2nd pistol shoots 1, reloads, knocks down 2 more plates, then goes to dump, put 3  on dump then goes to bonus and click. he lost track of round count.  Procedural or just a no bonus? My argument for no call was he did reload, but just missed the bonus target. Had he missed the dump target, it obviously would have been a no call. it was clear that he was shooting at the dump target, there was no doubt about that.

 

As he later picked up a procedural this was a moot point, but trying to figure out appropriate call.

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Did they fire 10 or 11 shots?

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No misses, no procedural, no bonus.

 

There were no misses on the dump target after the plates were down, so no misses.  The plates, dump target, and bonus target were engaged in the specified order, so no procedural.  The shooter performed a reload so no procedural.  The eleventh shot missed the bonus so no bonus.  The fact that the 11th shot hit the dump target is irrelevant.

 

We don't consider intent anymore.

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I'm thinking  that because the 11th shot was suppose to be on a 'specific' designated 'PISTOL'  target and the 11th shot hit another 'same type target',    (i.e...pistol shot on pistol targets),   when it hit the wrong pistol target, it became a bonafide 'P'.

AND.......No Bonus.

 

Because the pistol shot hit a pistol target, there would be no miss.

And, it also appears the reload precess was correctly performed by the shooter.

 

Now, I will proceed to find the Rule that covers this and post it.

 

EDIT:  ROI book, pages 70-72, particularly the Flow Chart.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

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I would have to know the location or space between the dump target and the bonus target. If they were far enough apart, then intent is out of the picture. For example - 10 feet apart would, to me, result in a P. I know this is a subjective call but in an extreme example I think there should be a line. Gonna get flamed on this one. Certainly no misses, all correct target types were hit.

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PROCEDURAL for hitting the pistol targets "out of order".

Last shot was supposed to be on the "bonus" target.

No miss...No bonus.

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"INTENT" is NOT  a consideration...only the end result of the shooter's action(s).

 

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15 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

PROCEDURAL for hitting the pistol targets "out of order".

Last shot was supposed to be on the "bonus" target.

No miss...No bonus.

Certainly makes sense. HIT the wrong (correct type) target = P.   MISS the wrong target = depends on stage instructions. May or may not be a miss.

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26 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

PROCEDURAL for hitting the pistol targets "out of order".

Last shot was supposed to be on the "bonus" target.

No miss...No bonus.

 

This seems inconsistent to me.

 

If the 11th shot had hit a rifle target or a shotgun target it would not be called a procedural, correct?

 

If the 11th shot does not hit the bonus, it should not matter which, if any, other target was hit.  Otherwise you are letting intent creep back into the decision.  When the first 10 shots fulfilled the stage instructions on shooting the pistol targets, then those targets become dirt, just like you were shifting to the rifle at that point.

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so a missed caused a p

 

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1 minute ago, Blackey Cole said:

so a missed caused a p

 

A HIT out of order caused the P. There was no miss.

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Just now, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

This seems inconsistent to me.

 

If the 11th shot had hit a rifle target or a shotgun target it would not be called a procedural, correct?

 

If the 11th shot does not hit the bonus, it should not matter which, if any, other target was hit.  Otherwise you are letting intent creep back into the decision.  When the first 10 shots fulfilled the stage instructions on shooting the pistol targets, then those targets become dirt, just like you were shifting to the rifle at that point.

 

Inconsistent how?

The "bonus target" was a designated PISTOL target to be engaged in a specific order (with the 11th round from the PISTOL)

The 11th round hit a different PISTOL target, earning the "P" for HITTING the PISTOL targets "out of order".

If the last shot from the PISTOL had HIT anything other than a PISTOL target, it would have been a MISS...No "P".

 

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Quote

 

10- SECOND PENALTIES

Procedural Penalties 

Any unintentional procedural errors caused by "brain fade," confusion, ignorance, or mistakes (not to exceed one for any given stage).  

Failure to attempt to fire a firearm. 

Failure to attempt a prop or stage maneuver. 

Shooting targets in an order other than as required by stage description. 

Engaging the stage (firearms, targets, or maneuvers) in an order other than as required by the stage description.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Blackey Cole said:

so a missed caused a p

 

No, a "hit" caused the "P".  Correct type of target, no miss, but out of order.

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"Shooting targets in an order other than as required by stage description. "
 

Then it should read 

 

Hitting targets in an order other than as required by stage instructions.

 

"Shooting" is conceptually the same as "Shooting at" and implies intent.
 

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9 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

"Shooting targets in an order other than as required by stage description. "
 

Then it should read 

 

Hitting targets in an order other than as required by stage instructions.

 

"Shooting" is conceptually the same as "Shooting at" and implies intent.
 

 

There is no "intent" implied, but if it would help to make the correct call in this situation more understandable, I'll be sure to have that verbiage edited in the next edition of the RO1.

There are numerous other sources in the rules clarify that HITTING the targets "out of order" is a PROCEDURAL. (e.g. the "MISS FLOW CHART").

 

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Thank you Pale Wolf for considering the change.

 

This will be my final comment and d**n me if I ever post in another WTC!  ;)

 

In my experience a "bonus" target is by definition a no-fault target.  My first post was made with this definition in mind.  It helps you if you hit it, but doesn't hurt you if you miss it.  Keeping the shooter in jeopardy when it comes to shooting a bonus target is a new concept for me.  I hope I am the only one in SASS that made the error.  

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All sorts of problems occur when a stage has a "bonus" target.  If any shooter hits it is is no longer a bonus but a must hit for everyone to be on a level field. I QUIT writing bonus targets in stages at least 6 years ago.

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Thanks for clearing it up PWB. like J-Bar, I was in the no call camp.  I'll have to admit that had he missed the dump target with the last shot, it would have been a no penalty, no bonus situation, and that seems inconsistent, and that bothers me.   But like I said, this scenario had a different wrinkle! 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Hoss said:

with pistols, knock down 6 plates then put remaining rounds on dump target. reload 1 and shoot bonus target. (shooter may reload anytime after beep, bonus target must be engaged)

 

shooter shoots 5, then with 2nd pistol shoots 1, reloads, knocks down 2 more plates, then goes to dump, put 3  on dump then goes to bonus and click. he lost track of round count.

 

     Help me understand what actually happened as the way I am reading the stage instructions and what the shooter did seems pretty straight forward to me.

     Shooter was to hit 5 plates with the first revolver, which they did. Shooter was to then hit one more plate and then dump the remaining 4 shots on the dump target. Shooter actually shot 2 more plates, before dumping the remaining 3 rounds onto the dump target. The fact that the shooter hit 2 plates, instead of 1 plate before unloading at the dump target, in and of itself calls for a Procedural. Everything that occurred after that is not up for consideration.

     PaleWolf's initial statement is correct that the Shooter gets a  Procedural for hitting pistol targets "out of order". Has nothing to do with misses or bonus for that matter.

      Please let me know if I am not comprehending the scenario correctly.

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20 minutes ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

 

     Help me understand what actually happened as the way I am reading the stage instructions and what the shooter did seems pretty straight forward to me.

     Shooter was to hit 5 plates with the first revolver, which they did. Shooter was to then hit one more plate and then dump the remaining 4 shots on the dump target. Shooter actually shot 2 more plates, before dumping the remaining 3 rounds onto the dump target. The fact that the shooter hit 2 plates, instead of 1 plate before unloading at the dump target, in and of itself calls for a Procedural. Everything that occurred after that is not up for consideration.

     PaleWolf's initial statement is correct that the Shooter gets a  Procedural for hitting pistol targets "out of order". Has nothing to do with misses or bonus for that matter.

      Please let me know if I am not comprehending the scenario correctly.

Nope, read the stage instructions......."with pistols knock down the 6 plates" The shooter had up to 10 rounds to hit the 6 plates (don't think 1st pistol 2nd pistol, It's 10 rounds). Any remaining rounds go to the dump,  plus a reload to the bonus....he did the reload but he just lost count when he put the 11th round on the dump instead of the bonus. P shooting pistol targets out of order.

  FWIW Pale Wolf is the official word on rules, if you see his answers in "bold blue" it's official, often with references to SHB, ROI or ROII. Go back and read his 1st and 3rd  answers....Good Luck:)

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10 hours ago, Hoss said:

with pistols, knock down 6 plates then put remaining rounds on dump target. reload 1 and shoot bonus target.

shooter shoots 5, then with 2nd pistol shoots 1, reloads, knocks down 2 more plates, then goes to dump, put 3  on dump then goes to bonus and click,...

 

Jefro,

    Thank you for responding.

     I guess I'm getting confused with the words "shoot" and "hit".

    When Hoss says "shooter shoots 5, then with 2nd pistol shoots 1, at this point in time I assumed he has already "hit" 6 plates.

     Is that correct?

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Just now, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

 

Jefro,

    Thank you for responding.

     I guess I'm getting confused with the words "shoot" and "hit".

    When Hoss says "shooter shoots 5, then with 2nd pistol shoots 1, at this point in time I assumed he has already "hit" 6 plates.

     Is that correct?

He knocked 4 plates down with 1st 5 shots, then knocked 2 plates down with second pistol with 3 shots, then puts 3 remaining shots (including reload) on dump target. He should have put 2 shots on dump target & 1 shot on/at bonus.

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40 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

He knocked 4 plates down with 1st 5 shots, then knocked 2 plates down with second pistol with 3 shots, then puts 3 remaining shots (including reload) on dump target. He should have put 2 shots on dump target & 1 shot on/at bonus.

That's correct.  

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2 minutes ago, Hoss said:

That's correct.  

The Devil's in the details !  :)  :)

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Gosh, I thought I explained this fairly simple in my original post, including a reference from our ROI book and Flow Chart.

 

Did I miss something in my explanation?   

 

..........Widder

 

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17 hours ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

Gosh, I thought I explained this fairly simple in my original post, including a reference from our ROI book and Flow Chart.

 

Did I miss something in my explanation?   

 

..........Widder

 

 

No...you didn't.

I should have just "quoted" your answer with 

^^^^^

THIS

 

...below it (I'm blocked from "liking" posts on this forum.)

(edit...apparently the "like" function has been activated for ROC members...at least for one of them!)

;)

 

 

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9 hours ago, Happy Jack, SASS #20451 said:

All sorts of problems occur when a stage has a "bonus" target.  If any shooter hits it is is no longer a bonus but a must hit for everyone to be on a level field. I QUIT writing bonus targets in stages at least 6 years ago.

I agree - scoring nightmare (well pain in the butt) and especially in this case where it was mandatory.

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7 hours ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

Gosh, I thought I explained this fairly simple in my original post, including a reference from our ROI book and Flow Chart.

 

Did I miss something in my explanation?   

 

..........Widder

 

 

BLUE INK!!!!!  :lol::lol:

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Thanks PWB.

I went back and read my post about 3-4 times to see if I had miss stated, misspelt, or total got it out of whack.

 

Actually, I liked your wording best, especially in BLUE..... :)

(I gotta get me some of that blue ink)..... ;)

 

Hey WYATT, I think you got a good point..... :)

 

..........Widder

 

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PaleWolf, Widowmaker & Wyatt:

    I've only participated in two (2) matches, and have watched numerous previous matches with the Pistoleros before that, and have not seen our club have a stage where objects are staged to be shot such as a row of plates or targets. I have only been privy to shooting at fixed steel targets that must be shot in a particular sequence. Therefore, in these situations, your allocated ten (10) rounds have already been given their assigned targets to hit in a predetermined order. Miss a target and it's a Miss, shoot a target out of sequence, it's a Procedural.

    What I was not entirely familiar with was the scenario that Hoss presented in his OP.

    The stage Hoss described included six (6) fixed targets for which the shooter had ten (10) rounds available to take them down. All remaining shots were to go to the dump target. If the shooter shot at a plate and missed, there is no 5 sec Miss penalty. If the shooter shot the outside plates first and the middle plates last, there is no set pattern and therefore no 10 sec Procedural penalty. And, If after firing at all six (6) plates it took shooter ten (10) rounds to hit them all, the shooter would have no need to shoot at the dump target.

    Yusta B. later explained this process and Hoss confirmed it to my satisfaction, and I now understood the process, and can relate to the explanations that all three of you provided.

    My response questions were intended to educate New Shooters who, like me, have not been subjected to this type of target shooting. There was no harm intended in my posts.

 

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Kit Cool,

 

Although I can't speak for Wyatt (NOBODY tries to speak for Wyatt.. :)  ), I didn't interpret anything in your post to be harmful or ill intended.   Actually, I read nearly all your post and enjoy your comments, suggestions, and good questions.

 

As for Wyatt,  he keeps earning more black stars from PWB and Allie Mo (BCM: Big Cat Moderator)..... ;)

 

p.s. Allie will kill me for sticking that name on her

 

..........Widder

 

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Widder:

   (Your mailbox is full as I tried to send this to you via a PM.)

   Thank you for the kind words.

   One day, I'll be experienced enough where my threads and posts will no longer be from the New Shooter perspective.

   Maybe I can earn some Black Stars then, just like Wyatt. :blink:

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Black Stars started out being a BAD thing ;):lol:

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Kit, 

I'm with Widder on this. Your question was most legitimate and a good one for new shooters and a lot of older shooters. 

I used to shoot at a club, I won't go back, that a miss on the plate rack knock down targets was a miss even if you knocked it down with your next round. Not exactly right....

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