SMLE

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

So I'm watching an episode of Hickock 45 featuring a Mark III SMLE ca 1917. He shows loading the magazine with 5-round clip a la 1903 Springfield, but struggles to load the second 5-round clip for 10 rounds. Therefore, he loads the second 5 rounds individually which takes longer than the weapon designers intended.

 

During the course of fire, after maybe 3-5 rounds, he accidentally trips the mag release resulting in it falling to the ground with ammo loaded. He picks it up, inserts it in the rifle and continues the course of fire for the remaining rounds.

 

Question: if loading from the second clip is/was difficult, why not load the magazine with ten rounds first and insert like other box-fed magazine rifles?

[Captain Clark]

47 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

So I'm watching an episode of Hickock 45 featuring a Mark III SMLE ca 1917. He shows loading the magazine with 5-round clip a la 1903 Springfield, but struggles to load the second 5-round clip for 10 rounds. Therefore, he loads the second 5 rounds individually which takes longer than the weapon designers intended.

 

 

Question: if loading from the second clip is/was difficult, why not load the magazine with ten rounds first and insert like other box-fed magazine rifles?

Because Jamming stripper clips in is "cool" , and box magazines aren't!

 

usually SMLE load smoothly, might have been that particular gun. I have experienced some lower quality ammo that does feel gritty when pushing them down, just a possibility.

[Subdeacon Joe]

I've ever had problems with it.  

I am wondering just how he accidentally dropped the magazine.  That magazine catch is heavy and, at least on the Enfields I've had experience with, the magazine doesn't drop out easily.  

 

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

Maybe it had been slicked up?

 

Is that even possible?

[Alpo]

>Question: if loading from the second clip is/was difficult, why not load the magazine with ten rounds first and insert like other box-fed magazine rifles?<

 

Probably because you were not supposed to remove the empty magazine and insert a full one. You were supposed to load the magazine using chargers (Brits don't use "strippers", they use "chargers").

 

They did not give you spare magazines, so you could have one or two or ten loaded ones, to quickly change and keep going.

 

Good God, man. Do you have any idea of the COST of equipping each trooper with multiple magazines? And once they were emptied they'd be dropped into the mud of a trench, or lost in No Man's Land? Do you think His Majesty is MADE of money?

[Duffield, SASS #23454]

The original intent was that troops would carry spare, loaded magazines.  The Lee-Metfords had no provision for loading with chargers.

As Alpo points out, the cost was too much, so the bridge was added to the later Marks to allow loading with chargers.   It is rivied to the receiver, and can be easily removed when sporterizing a SMLE.

 

Duffield

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

11 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

I've ever had problems with it.  

I am wondering just how he accidentally dropped the magazine.  That magazine catch is heavy and, at least on the Enfields I've had experience with, the magazine doesn't drop out easily.  

 

He showed how easily it came out by lightly bumping the release. Said he was gonna have a smith look at as it wasn't supposed to do that. 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

10 hours ago, Alpo said:

Good God, man. Do you have any idea of the COST of equipping each trooper with multiple magazines? And once they were emptied they'd be dropped into the mud of a trench, or lost in No Man's Land? Do you think His Majesty is MADE of money?

He touched on that and said some earlier models had a chain attached to the mag so they wouldn't lose it.

I knew very little about the SMLEs before watching this episode. I didn't even know the mag was detachable.

[Black Angus McPherson]

13 hours ago, Alpo said:

>Question: if loading from the second clip is/was difficult, why not load the magazine with ten rounds first and insert like other box-fed magazine rifles?<

 

Probably because you were not supposed to remove the empty magazine and insert a full one. You were supposed to load the magazine using chargers (Brits don't use "strippers", they use "chargers").

 

They did not give you spare magazines, so you could have one or two or ten loaded ones, to quickly change and keep going.

 

Good God, man. Do you have any idea of the COST of equipping each trooper with multiple magazines? And once they were emptied they'd be dropped into the mud of a trench, or lost in No Man's Land? Do you think His Majesty is MADE of money?

 

Way back when I was in 5th(?) grade I wrote a report comparing Allied and Axis small arms of WWII.  A report that would probably get a kid expelled today.  Anyway, even way back then i wondered why the SMLE was reloaded with chargers/stripper clips instead of just removing the empty magazine and replacing it with a full magazine.  To me, that makes even less sense than the magazine cutoff on a Springfield.  (Or was that on the Enfield?)

 

I guess that's the kind of thing that happens when the Quartermaster is making the decisions instead of the end users.

 

Angus

[Tom Bullweed]

The SMLE is the perfect battle bolt gun, that can look imperfect in untrained hands.

The mag was meant to be replaced only if it failed.

The Brit soldier was trained to load ten, but the chargers were designed to top off a mag 28th only five rounds.  Try that with a Garand.

The mad-minute was easier starting with a full mag and then load and shoot five repeated.  Think of a similar action with M1 Carbine 30-rounds loaded with only 27 rounds to prevent feed issues.

Rimlock is avoided between rounds 5&6 If one charger is loaded and shot at a time.

 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

12 minutes ago, Tom Bullweed said:

The Brit soldier was trained to load ten, but the chargers were designed to top off a mag 28th only five rounds.  Try that with a Garand.

The mad-minute was easier starting with a full mag and then load and shoot five repeated. 

Rimlock is avoided between rounds 5&6 If one charger is loaded and shot at a time.

 

If loading a clip every 5 rounds was/is more practical, why make a 10 round magazine? Seems the advantage over the Mausers and Spingfields is negated.

As for Garands, I bet most Tommies would have gladly traded their SMLEs for one.

[Alpo]

I read that one of the arguments made against auto pistols was the magazine. They cost too much, and the soldiers would lose them.

 

Remember that the first 1911 mags had lanyard loops on them. 

 

Can't really visualize them being used, though.

 

"I have a string going around my neck and down to the butt of my pistol, on the right side of my belt buckle. I have a second string ALSO around my neck, but it's going down to the magazine IN the butt of my pistol.

 

"I have TWO MORE strings around my neck, but they go down to the magazine pouch, on the left side of the buckle.

 

"I hope I don't have to poop. If I take off my pistol belt so I can lower my trousers, I'll most likely strangle myself."

[J.D. Daily]

The reason the 1903 Springfield has a magazine cutoff is that the Ordinance dept. included it in their design criteria for the rifle.  The officers writing the documents were of the Trapdoor era.  Except for evaluation trials where they rejected the bolt guns, they only had brief experience with repeating rifles w/ the M1892 Krag-Jorgensen. The Krag's paerformnce in battle against Spanish Mausers triggered the search for a replacement.  These officers stated that they were afraid that wo/ the cartridge cutoff riflemen would waste ammo.  Soldiers were trained to single feed the Springfield. Of course the 1st time a doe boy faced the Kaiser's troops charging across no-mans land he forgot his training & emptied his rifle's magazine as fast as he could cycle his weapon.

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

Removing the magazine from a SMLE was a punishable offense.  And I think the guy should have practiced a little more before turning on the camera.  A poor workman frequently blames his tools.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

I don't get the sense he was blaming the equipment. If ya watch the episode, you can can draw your own conclusions.

What I like about this guy is he gets a boatload of guns out there for folks to look at. I don't expect him to be an expert on all of 'em.

My 2 cents

 

 

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

Slim, you're right.  I rushed to judgement.  Thanks.

[grenadier]

"The Germans brought a hunting rifle, the Americans brought a target rifle, and the British brought a battle rifle."

[Tom Bullweed]

Hickok45 presents a wide range of guns and ammo.  He can really ring that 200 yard gong 28th standard pistols.

Gun last is another good youtube gun host, but to him all guns are dandy.  He never gives negative feedback.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Just to add to this discussion.

Early, and before WW2 when M1 Garands were shipped to troops in the Pacific areas, the ammo issued and sent since 1903s were still in service. Troopers had to hold onto their en blocs, since they may encounter crates intended for the 1903, ammo in 5 round clips, or loose ammo Grade R, (rifle grade). Early on this was the way manufacturers shipped their ammo. Grade R, Grade M, (machine gun .30 caliber) were shipped in 20rd boxes also. So those issued Garands had to strip the clips, or open 20 rd boxes and reload their en blocs. Later of course manufacturers issued ammo for the M1 Garand with en blocs.

As to 1911, Thompsons, came packed in 20 rd boxes, later in 1942, .45 acps were packed in 50 rd boxes. So holding onto your magazines was a must. Replacement magazines, were available and were shipped, but you took your chances to find them.

The 1917s acps were shipped in 3 rds half moon clips, 8 clips per carton.

M1 carbine ammo was shipped in 3 rows, 45 rd cartons, later in the war this was also changed to 50 rd cartons.

50 caliber (Grade AC or MG) were shipped in 10 rd cartons. Though belts and links were always  plentiful.

So early on, en blocs were saved and recovered, and a soldier rarely discarded a magazine.

[Pat Riot]

I agree with Grenadier. 

 

I owned a SMLE no. 4 mk 1 and compared to my 1917, and my friends Mauser,  his 1903 and a few modern bolt actions I thought the SMLE, overall, was better than any of them in all regards (except the .303 round) for what it was made to do.

 

I really do not like bolt actions at all, but I do like and respect the design of the SMLE.

[Subdeacon Joe]

2 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

I agree with Grenadier. 

 

I owned a SMLE no. 4 mk 1 and compared to my 1917, and my friends Mauser,  his 1903 and a few modern bolt actions I thought the SMLE, overall, was better than any of them in all regards (except the .303 round) for what it was made to do.

 

I really do not like bolt actions at all, but I do like and respect the design of the SMLE.

 

 

In terms of ballistics the .303 Brit and the .308 can be quite similar.  Range of bullet weights are about the same.  The .308 can be pushed a bit faster.  With similar bullet weights the drop on the .303 and the .308 are very close out to about 600 yards going from some of the tables I've seen.  

Both will get the job done.

[Pat Riot]

Just now, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

 

In terms of ballistics the .303 Brit and the .308 can be quite similar.  Range of bullet weights are about the same.  The .308 can be pushed a bit faster.  With similar bullet weights the drop on the .303 and the .308 are very close out to about 600 yards going from some of the tables I've seen.  

Both will get the job done.

I should have clarified. I didn't care for the round simply because it was hard to find and there was very little selection in regards to variety. I used mine for deer hunting, though I never got a deer with it. It shot .303 very well. I just couldn't find ammo for it and I didn't reload at the time.

 

I could never bring myself to rebarrel it or modify it an any way so I gave it to my brother. Then I went in search of another "perfect" bolt action in .308 and settled on a Remington 673. I ended up selling that one.