Cimarron/Uberti Cattleman II Revolvers

[Catgut Cav]

On 9/4/2017 at 11:10 AM, 45 Dragoon said:

Lol, I'll give ya 2 more gusses!! 

 

Mike

Mike, I have to concede this debate, you've won.  

 

With factory spring installed in one of my Uberti's, plus Federal and Winchester factory ammo along with my reloads, I went back to the range.  Several failures to fire with both pistols, with all three types of ammo.  I am convinced the problem is the new firing pin mechanism.

Here's a pick of two primer strikes.  One barely dented, one almost completely pierced, and I had every depth in between.  On one of the no fires, the pin hit the seam between the primer and the pocket.  

 

Anyone have a source for the old style hammer and trigger?  I'll need at least two of each.

 

[John Henry Quick]

It looks like you have a timing issue as well.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

1 hour ago, Catgut Cav said:

...Anyone have a source for the old style hammer and trigger?  I'll need at least two of each.

VTI / Cimarron / Taylors

 

1 hour ago, John Henry Quick said:

It looks like you have a timing issue as well.

Yep.  Usually over-rotation.

 

edit:  Yeah, "usually".  But thinking about it, this new hammer is different.  Could the Firing Pin be binding and/or "twisting" side to side in it's hammer hole?  Causing it to enter a little crooked into the FP hole in the frame?  Or causing it to hit the edge of the FP hole robbing it of energy?   Hmmm

[45 Dragoon]

Catgut,

  I still think you need to compare the hammer cams.  Getting them "just right" (or evan close) height wise and smooth makes sooo much difference! You may find the lighter spring will smack the fool out of a primer just fine!  When folks start getting close to "the line" of go/no go with the action, it helps to remove all the obvious "detractors".  The benefits though are quickness/easy handling combined with longer life because of not " over working" the bolt. 

 

  Of course, since you want the old style hammers, when you get them, check the cams with them as well.  High, rough cams rob huge amounts of energy!

 

Mike

[Ron "Ironhead" Smith]

On 9/9/2017 at 8:49 PM, Catgut Cav said:

Mike, I have to concede this debate, you've won.  

 

With factory spring installed in one of my Uberti's, plus Federal and Winchester factory ammo along with my reloads, I went back to the range.  Several failures to fire with both pistols, with all three types of ammo.  I am convinced the problem is the new firing pin mechanism.

Here's a pick of two primer strikes.  One barely dented, one almost completely pierced, and I had every depth in between.  On one of the no fires, the pin hit the seam between the primer and the pocket.  

 

Anyone have a source for the old style hammer and trigger?  I'll need at least two of each.

 

Mine didn't even dent that far on the no fires. I put an old style hammer & trigger in, no joy. Gun is now back at Taylors.

[Ron "Ironhead" Smith]

3 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

VTI / Cimarron / Taylors

 

Yep.  Usually over-rotation.

 

edit:  Yeah, "usually".  But thinking about it, this new hammer is different.  Could the Firing Pin be binding and/or "twisting" side to side in it's hammer hole?  Causing it to enter a little crooked into the FP hole in the frame?  Or causing it to hit the edge of the FP hole robbing it of energy?   Hmmm

 

That's not the problem. The problem is the spur on the trigger has to push a spring loaded plunger up inside the hammer that pushes a lever that extends the firing pin. To get full extension on the firing pin the trigger must be pulled all the way back to the stop. The spring on the plunger is pretty stiff too. Entirely too much monkey motion BS going on in there.

I took some pics of the parts out of the gun, I'll post them tomorrow.

[Warden Callaway]

It's hard to notice the drag of the bolt leg spring as it ramps up and over the D cam with the gun assembled and hammer spring installed.  Try just installing the hammer, bolt and trigger bolt spring in the frame.  Then you can feel the force it takes for the hammer to push the leg of the bolt spring up and over the cam on hammer fall.

 

The second Smoke Wagon Deluxe I got from Taylor's was giving me FTF.  The D cam was very high and a very steep initial angle with an abrupt change to a lesser angle.   And it wasn't polished.  I exchanged email with Taylor's about this as the Deluxe was supposed to be custom tuned and competition ready. Their reply was that they didn't polish the D cams because it rounded off the back edge and changed the timing. Well, I wouldn't polish a D cam with a buffing wheel anyway.  I use hones and stones.  I found a set of hones from MidwayUSA 

 

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/813827/dmt-sharpeners-25-dia-sharp-mini-hone-kit-coarse-fine-and-extra-fine

 

I used these hones to reduce the steep angle of the cam and blend it into the second angle. I polished the face of the D cam - again with these hones. The bolt leg spring also had an abrupt, steep angle and I reduced it as well and polished it where it slid up the face of the D cam.   These two small changes dramatically reduced the drag on the hammer fall and I quit getting FTF.

 

Here is the D cam on the Smoke Wagon Deluxe as delivered.  The angles on the ramp up were like nothing I'd seen before.  Notice the steep angle at the lower edge.  I lowered and angled the center (bright) surface to eliminate most of the steep part of the ramp.

 

 

The bolt leg also had a very steep angle and no polishing.  I lowered this angle some and blended it into the flat some and polished the surfaces. 

 

The steep angle on the bolt leg matched the steep angle on the D cam and as the hammer fell, it really took up a lot of the hammer fall force. 

 

I didn't reduce the total height of the D cam or changed the top edge. 

 

 

Here is the D cam on a well worn second generation Colt I have.  Note the single low angle to the ramp.

 

 

 

[Possum Pete]

Shot my brand new smoke wagon deluxe on Saturday and had several very light primer strikes. I put an email in to Taylors about this and was then very disappointed to see this thread and learn about the new "Cattleman II" system, which I wasn't aware of.  I thought it was odd I was only hearing 3 clicks but thought maybe it was just the way it was tuned (this is my first SAA).   

 

My dear wife got this for me so as far as she'll ever know, it's perfect.  

[vietvet1968]

9 hours ago, Possum Pete said:

Shot my brand new smoke wagon deluxe on Saturday and had several very light primer strikes. I put an email in to Taylors about this and was then very disappointed to see this thread and learn about the new "Cattleman II" system, which I wasn't aware of.  I thought it was odd I was only hearing 3 clicks but thought maybe it was just the way it was tuned (this is my first SAA).   

 

My dear wife got this for me so as far as she'll ever know, it's perfect.  

I bought a model p a few months ago and it came with the new style hammer, I didn't like it at all. I called Vti gun parts and bought the old style hammer and trigger, now it operates like it should . Or how I wanted it to.

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

On 9/10/2017 at 12:52 AM, Warden Callaway said:

It's hard to notice the drag of the bolt leg spring as it ramps up and over the D cam with the gun assembled and hammer spring installed.  .........................................

 

 

 

 

 

That's not a "D" cam hammer.

 

This is what the old "D" cam hammer looks like. Notice the flat on the side of the cam. It and the really sharp pointed early 1st gen style bolt finger didn't get along very long. The sharp bolt finger chews the corner off the "D" and the gun goes out of time as in Ring around the cylinder.

 

 

Again, the simple fix for these retracting FP's is to epoxy the rod into the hammer so that it holds the FP forward. I like to epoxy rather than solder because with some heat it can be easily removed. Then because the tab on the trigger has to lift and engage the rod as the hammer swings forward which can interfere with the hammers forward motion just cut the tab off the trigger.