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More point of impact questions on lever guns


Two gun Ted

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So... recently I have purchased some really expensive toys and have been disappointed.  Do all these guns need tweeking with sights? My 1876 shot a foot high at 50 yards.  I had to change the front sight. Now my shiny new 1866 shoots six inches low at 25 yards and way to the left. I know ammo makes a different but these guns are nowhere close to point of aim and accuracy has been disappointing. Help please 

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Welcome to the trials and tribulations of shooting and feeding reproductions of 19th Century fire arms.  Some sight adjustment and sight replacement is very common.  You don't mention if your shiny new 66 is a rifle or a Carbine.  A Carbine is frequently more problematic than a rifle.

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Some of my lever guns from Cowboy side are so accurate, I really can't believe them.    Levers have history of not being a very accurate gun, but I've got some that will shoot 2 MOA with almost any ammo.  
 

Accuracy is what you need to focus on. Adjusting sights to be hitting point of aim is quite easy to fix after you have accuracy.  Most folks new to the sport don't realize how precise you have to be with sight picture to get all the accuracy you can out of cowboy guns. 

 

Let an accomplished cowboy shooter try your guns and ammo.  It may well be your ability to see iron sights or to consistently get a good sight picture that is a root cause.

 

Make sure you are using good ammo.  If buying cowboy ammo, be aware that, like many times happens, store-bought ammo can often (usually) be out-performed by good reloads

 

A 66 carbine with the barrel band sight commonly gives much more of an accuracy problem than the barrel-dovetail of a rifle.  Because the front sight band is moving a little as you fire rounds, as CC hinted at..  Be sure that the barrel band with front sight is correctly installed and not sitting crooked on the barrel.

 

And, cowboy shooting is not really an accuracy game.  If you expect these old designs to shoot like precision built bolt actions, you will be disappointed. Only when folks do some long range rifle shooting, does this game demand stellar accuracy.

 

Go to a few local matches and strike up acquaintances with some of the pards in your neighborhood.  They can help troubleshoot any problems MUCH easier than we can at the end of a wire.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

PS - 

Quote

I had to change the front sight.

 

OK, so what's the big deal with that?  The 76 is not a model that is reproduction-manufactured in great numbers.  Perhaps the factory stuck the wrong front sight on your gun.  You can complain about what was sold you, or you can fix it to meet your needs.   I try to stick with the second approach as it gives much better results.

;)

 

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+1 to what CC and GJ said

 

Adding on, does your '66 shoot groups low and left consistently with all ammo or just some? If it's all ammo, you can adjust your sights accordingly. If it varies with ammo, you need to do some investigative trials to eliminate the variables.

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not mentioned what sights are on the rifles:

* if stock barrel rear sight & front blade ... left or right POI = moving both sights to be in straight alignment to the bore

* stock sights ... up or down POI is usually proper sight picture and hold of the rifle when the trigger is pulled

* If the rear sights are either peep or verniers - the elevation & left/right adjustments are corrected again with straight line alignment to the bore axis with adjustment to the rear's.  Left/right correction is done with shims under the sight base and height is just a matter of raising or lowering the MOA settings on the sights

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IMHO, you'll want to start reloading, You'll likely have to do that to get the best of your toys (in addition to being a lot cheaper!)

You will want to try different powders, powder charge weights and bullet weights and bullet sizing, to find what groups best.

I shoot .45 Colt and found Trail Boss charge and a 250 grain bullet best compromise for my SAA's and my rifles. (Your mileage may differ.)

After that, I would go for sight adjustment that will allow you to hit the small candy suckers like the sadistic I mean challenging stage writers for our posse sometimes include in a match.

If you don't shoot at targets that small, most CAS targets can be hit with just about any round, perhaps using a little "Kentucky Windage" at recommended CAS distances

Welcome to the fun!!

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My lever guns shoot very well with any ammo I put in them. My 1906 38-55 will shoot 1 moa at 100yds. I have the targets to back that up. My match guns will easily hit any target in any Cowboy match if I do my part. I use a heavy bullet in the long guns for best accuracy, but that is not needed for the easy targets found in this game. It is NOT a accuracy game, simply a speed of operation contest.

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See if I can respond to everyone. It's a 1966 carbine with factory sights. I did knock the rear sight way over but the only way to get elevation is to file the front sight down. I need to try some other ammo. Only mold I have is a Lyman 185 grain and with trail boss or red dot I'm not getting good groups.  The 76 is a carbine too and replacing the front sight solved the issue i just expected a rifle that cost this much would at least hit a pie plate out of the box.  I'm not looking for precision guns just decent accuracy.  It has been fun getting these guns to work correctly.  I slicked all the actions, polished triggers, been loading black powder ect.  I was mainly asking if filing or replacing sights is normal.

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Casting with a hard alloy and sizing to a small diameter (for bore)  makes for bullets skidding down the barrel, and poor accuracy.  If you are using 6-2 or Lyman #2 alloy, or linotype heavy wheel weight type alloy, it's hard.   Some of the best accuracy at slow speeds and low pressures comes with alloy of 8 or 9 Brinnell hardness.

 

TrailBoss and Red Dot are quite capable of good accuracy in .45 Colt loading.   There might be a few slightly more accurate, but it's not the powder causing you grief.

 

Good luck, GJ

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It is also very common for the front Barrel Band (Front Sight is on the Barrel Band) of a Uberti Carbine to shift around.  Take a hard look at the vertical alignment of your front sight.

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Quote

I did knock the rear sight way over but the only way to get elevation is to file the front sight down.

Shouldn't have to do!  And don't file any metal until someone else shoots the rifle.  Use a bullseye or 6:00 POIsights.jpg

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My 76 had to have a new front sight and to file it down till it shot dead on. Nothing to do with my shooting, just two short. I'm not filing anything on the 66 until I get some different ammo through it. My bullets very well may be the issue. 

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9 hours ago, Two gun Ted said:

See if I can respond to everyone. It's a 1966 carbine with factory sights. I did knock the rear sight way over but the only way to get elevation is to file the front sight down. I need to try some other ammo. Only mold I have is a Lyman 185 grain and with trail boss or red dot I'm not getting good groups.  The 76 is a carbine too and replacing the front sight solved the issue i just expected a rifle that cost this much would at least hit a pie plate out of the box.  I'm not looking for precision guns just decent accuracy.  It has been fun getting these guns to work correctly.  I slicked all the actions, polished triggers, been loading black powder ect.  I was mainly asking if filing or replacing sights is normal.

 

Howdy

 

I sure wish my photobucket account was working right so I could post some photos.

 

I have no idea how much experience you have with the sights that come on lever rifles.

 

I'm guessing your rifles came with Semi-Buckhorn sights. The image John Boy posted is useful, but it may not tell you what you need to know with Buckhorn sights. The issue is not windage, that should be obvious. The issue is exactly how high to place the front sight relative to the 'ears' of the rear, buckhorn sight. I recently took an antique 32-20 Winchester Model 1892 to the range and I was driving tacks with it at 25 yards, with the sights set exactly the way they were when I bought it. That gun was literally dead nuts on with factory ammo, with the sight picture I was using. I handed the gun to a friend to try, who is not familiar with old lever guns and the sights that came on them, and he did not do so good, he was shooting really high. Turns out I had been forming the sight picture I am used to, with the front blade nestled way down in the tiny V at the bottom of the rear sight. Sure wish I could post a photo to show you. He had the front sight resting way up near the top of the ears of the front sight, so with the way the sights were set up he was shooting really high.

 

It looks like I can download a photo directly from my hard drive here. This is the rear sight from an antique Winchester Model 1873. Notice the tiny notch at the bottom of the sight. This is not the 1892 I was speaking of, but the sight is similar. For precision shooting with this rifle I will nest the front sight blade way down in that tiny V. That will put my rounds right where I put the front sight. However for CAS, we shoot fast and don't take a lot of time to aim. During a match I will allow the front sight to drift up higher in the rear sight so I can see it clearly with my really bad eyesight. In this case, the rear sight almost behaves like a ghost ring. As long as I keep the front blade centered between the ears and place the front sight somewhere near the center of the target, I will hit the target.

 

592381445a24e_winchester187338-40rearsight.thumb.jpg.ea1df4cbc6e9a9b68d8b81f1bba5da02.jpg

 

 

I could not help notice you mentioned Black Powder. What type of bullet lube are you using on you BP loads? If you use conventional hard cast bullet lube, you will probably experience hard, caked fouling that will quickly ruin repeat accuracy.

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Howdy Again

 

Will wonders never cease? Photobucket appears to be working again, at least for now. Here is the rear sight from said 32-20 Model 1892. You can see how tiny that little 'V' is in the rear sight. Shooting from a rest, when I placed my front blade down in that tiny V, this rifle was dead nuts, right on at 25 yards with factory ammo. If I were to use it in CAS, standing on my hind legs, I would allow the front sight to drift up about level with the top of the ears, and I would place the sight picture at the center of the target. Haven't taken it to a match yet, but I'm sure it would nail the target with every shot.

 

Rear%20Sight_zpsaaiwdbnk.jpg

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The topic of "sight picture" can get real complicated. With iron sights such as Driftwood shows, not only does the placement of the front sight relative to the notch or the top of the "ears" cause differences, but also where you hold the front sight.  The Army used to mandate a "six o'clock" hold on a bullseye target. The Navy tended to place the top of the front sight on the middle of the target. Personally, I prefer the "Navy hold", as deer and other wild game don't have a bullseye painted on them. Some folks use a different rear sight on their rifles, where, instead of the curved "horns" the top of the sight is flat, but still has the notch. Depending on the range/trajectory to the target, the front blade can either be nestled down in the notch or even with the top of the rear sight flats.  Now, personally, when I can find them, I prefer the "Full Buckhorn" rear sight. This has the ears that curve around even more that the semi-. This tends to act like an aperture peep sight.  I simply align the top of the front sight with the target, and let the front sight center itself in the almost aperture created by the rear sight horns. Regardless of how you do it, consistency is the key, even in rapid fire like we have in SASS matches. Nowadays, most manufacturers are leaving the front sights a little high, allowing the shooter to file down the blade as they choose. (You can always take more metal off the front sight. Putting it back on, if the gun is shooting high is another matter!)

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Howdy Again

 

I am happy as a clam now that my photobucket account is working again.

 

Here are some more examples of lever gun rear sights.

 

Full Buckhorn on a Marlin Model 39A 22 RF. This sight would not be legal in CAS because of the white diamond.

 

Full%20Buckhorn%20Marlin_zps4tu0u1q6.jpg

 

 

 

 

Kind of a bizarre Full Buckhorn from Track of the Wolf on my 1860 Henry.

 

track%20of%20the%20wolf%20rear%20sight%2

 

 

 

 

Semi-Buckhorn on the 32-20 Model 1892. This is the one that was set up perfectly for me first time I took it out. Dig that octagon barrel.

 

Model%201892%2032-20%201911_zps5bcbk8gg.

 

 

 

 

An unusual old Semi-Buckhorn on an antique Model 1873 Winchester. This one looks like there was a diamond shaped inlay at one point right under the notch. The inlay is long gone. I never even noticed it until I took these photos. Without the white diamond, this sight is SASS legal.

 

Model%201873%2038-40%201882_zpsphsrlbdt.

 

 

 

 

Flat Top Buckhorn on a really old Marlin 1894.

 

marlin%201894%20rear%20sight_zpsafns5df8

 

 

 

 

Flat Top Buckhorn an a WInchester Model 94.

 

winchester%201894%20rear%20sight_zpsalpt

 

 

 

Folding leaf rear sight mounted on a Winchester 1892.

 

folding%20sight%20winchester%201892_zpsm

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Precision and accuracy are not interchangeable words.

Precision reflects group size.  It is a measure of consistancy and quality of loads and the barrel.

Accuracy reflects point of impact versus point of aim.  A group is used to find the averaged center.

All of my virtual guns must be accurate with the intended load at a practical range.

I expect greater precision in my target .22 rifle than my VAS levergun.

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You lost me a little but the gun does not hit where aimed at a specific distance. Today i tried 30 yards with 2 different loads of 200 grain bullets. Acceptable for my eye sight.  Two high to low.  But.... I was aiming at the top target.  I had an earlier post about my SA 44 WCF shooting very low, now today I got the same gun in 45 colt and it shoots dead on with top of front sight in rear notch. I have a Great Western that shoots dead on but someone has filed the front sight down  Sounds like all these guns needed to be tweaked a little.  I understand for CAS these are all accurate enough to shoot, I just prefer guns hit where I shoot. I have a marlin 336,1895 and a Ruger super black hawk that all shoot great. I'll get these ones figured out. Process of elimination,  ammo isn't the problem. 

20170523_190156.jpg

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Quote

 Two high to low.

No idea what that sentence is supposed to mean.

 

Don't know what firearm you shot those 4 shots with.  I would hazard a guess it's your 66 carbine.  At 30 yards, that's not too bad for a group size (about 1" across, 3" vertical).  It means you need to raise rear sight or replace front sight with something 0.075" shorter (estimated by rough scaling from the bullet hole diameter to the group offset from the center of top target).   That 75 thousandths would be a lot of sight change needed.  If it is really the sights.   And with a 66 carbine having the barrel band front sight - it's easier to find a higher rear sight to replace the factory sight than finding/building a lower front sight.

 

But with that vertical stringing - I would guess it's because you are not getting a consistent sight picture of the front bead in the rear sight!

 

Please let another good cowboy shooter try this gun out.   If they get the same results, I'd almost start to suspect a bent barrel or a damaged muzzle. At least you are cutting round holes in paper - not like you are getting bad keyholing from a poor fitting slug.

 

Good luck, GJ

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The sting was two different loads,  they grouped side by side but in two different groups. Has a steady rest and have been shooting for a long time.  These Uberti guns are the only ones I've ever has trouble with. 

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And we've told you about the great things that 73s and 66s built by Uberti  can do.  Your experience is NO WHERE CLOSE to typical.   If it were, there wouldn't be 20,000+ pards and pardettes shooting Uberti toggle link rifles with great satisfaction in this game!

 

Forgive us if we ask a lot of questions to try to validate your experience level, your seriousness and veracity.   Not all guests we get are knowledgeable, accurate and forthcoming with their whole story.

 

At this point, though, since it's hard to get you to talk to us much about whether you have tried some of the things we've suggested, perhaps you had best seek out a good COWBOY gunsmith and let them check the guns.  Let us know where you are located and we can suggest someone who has a golden touch with lever rifles. 

 

We told you earlier sometimes it's real hard to troubleshoot such problems as you seem to be having though the wire.  This seems to be one of those situations.  Besides,  four complaints in a row about how you don't think you ought to have to adjust your sights on "fixed sight" guns (especially SAA type revolvers that the factories like Uberti and Ruger build intentionally with tall front sights so that shooters have plenty of metal to file down to where their favorite load shoots to point of aim) seems a little over the top.

 

PS - and 2 shot groups???!   That, statistically, proves nothing.  Fire 5-shot groups or larger if you want to learn things from your target punching.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

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Thanks,  I was politely asking for help, I can fix the issue as I did with the 76. When I get a load picked I will power the front or buy a new for the rear. I've had modern lever actions without these issues and that's why I came here for opinions on these Uberti guns.

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Just now, Two gun Ted said:

Thanks,  I was politely asking for help, I can fix the issue as I did with the 76. When I get a load picked I will lower the front or buy a new for the rear. I've had modern lever actions without these issues and that's why I came here for opinions on these Uberti guns.

 

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9 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

And we've told you about the great things that 73s and 66s built by Uberti  can do.  Your experience is NO WHERE CLOSE to typical.   If it were, there wouldn't be 20,000+ pards and pardettes shooting Uberti toggle link rifles with great satisfaction in this game!

 

Forgive us if we ask a lot of questions to try to validate your experience level, your seriousness and veracity.   Not all guests we get are knowledgeable, accurate and forthcoming with their whole story.

 

At this point, though, since it's hard to get you to talk to us much about whether you have tried some of the things we've suggested, perhaps you had best seek out a good COWBOY gunsmith and let them check the guns.  Let us know where you are located and we can suggest someone who has a golden touch with lever rifles. 

 

We told you earlier sometimes it's real hard to troubleshoot such problems as you seem to be having though the wire.  This seems to be one of those situations.  Besides,  four complaints in a row about how you don't think you ought to have to adjust your sights on "fixed sight" guns (especially SAA type revolvers that the factories like Uberti and Ruger build intentionally with tall front sights so that shooters have plenty of metal to file down to where their favorite load shoots to point of aim) seems a little over the top.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

+1... 

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6 hours ago, Snakebite said:

+1... 

I fully understand fixed sights are going have different points of impact with different ammo. I just surprised how far off these guns were. 76 was over a foot high at 50 yards and different loads didn't change that. 66 is eight low at 25 with four different loads. Im sure if I took them to a match I'd f never know but I also intend to hunt with these guns and they need to be closer.  Sight replacement fixed the 76. I just expected more from expensive guns but nothing I can't fix. I Can use my 94 win or 1895 marlin but i wanted something classic so I'll just have to spend a little time to get them how I them. Didn't mean to ruffle so many feathers here

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6 hours ago, Snakebite said:

We told you earlier sometimes it's real hard to troubleshoot such problems as you seem to be having though the wire.  This seems to be one of those

Ive tried different shooter and different ammo with same results. 

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On 5/22/2017 at 11:25 AM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

It is also very common for the front Barrel Band (Front Sight is on the Barrel Band) of a Uberti Carbine to shift around.  Take a hard look at the vertical alignment of your front sight.

Tight and centered 

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On 5/21/2017 at 8:07 PM, Two gun Ted said:

So... recently I have purchased some really expensive toys and have been disappointed.  Do all these guns need tweeking with sights? My 1876 shot a foot high at 50 yards.  I had to change the front sight. Now my shiny new 1866 shoots six inches low at 25 yards and way to the left. I know ammo makes a different but these guns are nowhere close to point of aim and accuracy has been disappointing. Help please 

 

All my guns have required some level of tweaking but none were that far off.  All my pistol caliber lever guns hit the paper plate target at 50 yards with various loads.  Once I settled on a particular load then I would drift or file the sights as needed.  My rifle caliber lever guns again were close to point of aim at 100 yards, but I found a good load before fine tuning the sights.  The 1876 shooting a foot high at 50 yards sounds about right for shooting at 100 yards and further distances.  What caliber is the 76?  The 66 sounds like it needs to be sent back to the factory if it is that far off at just 25 yards.  I would think the front sight would almost have to be filed flush to the barrel before the point of impact would match point of aim.

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I have put new front sights on every rifle I have bought for CAS, along with about half the rear sights.  The factory front sight on Uberti rifles is ridiculously short in all cases.

 

First rifle I bought was a Rossi 92 with 24" barrel.  It shot 6 inches high at 15 yards with the rear sight as low as it would go.  I put a 0.500" front sight on it & problem was solved.

 

I also use a laser boresighter to check my guns at 12 yards.  They always need some minor adjustment & the laser works without requiring a range or ammo.  YMMV.

 

Holler

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30 minutes ago, July Smith said:

 

All my guns have required some level of tweaking but none were that far off.  All my pistol caliber lever guns hit the paper plate target at 50 yards with various loads.  Once I settled on a particular load then I would drift or file the sights as needed.  My rifle caliber lever guns again were close to point of aim at 100 yards, but I found a good load before fine tuning the sights.  The 1876 shooting a foot high at 50 yards sounds about right for shooting at 100 yards and further distances.  What caliber is the 76?  The 66 sounds like it needs to be sent back to the factory if it is that far off at just 25 yards.  I would think the front sight would almost have to be filed flush to the barrel before the point of impact would match point of aim.

76 is in 45-60, it was high at 175 yards.  My guess would be dead on at 50, flip the sight up for 100 then go up from there. That's how I set it up now. Made a new front sight and soldered it on. Filed to match load

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26 minutes ago, Hollifer A. Dollar said:

I have put new front sights on every rifle I have bought for CAS, along with about half the rear sights.  The factory front sight on Uberti rifles is ridiculously short in all cases.

 

First rifle I bought was a Rossi 92 with 24" barrel.  It shot 6 inches high at 15 yards with the rear sight as low as it would go.  I put a 0.500" front sight on it & problem was solved.

 

I also use a laser boresighter to check my guns at 12 yards.  They always need some minor adjustment & the laser works without requiring a range or ammo.  YMMV.

 

Holler

Ha!!! I'm not crazy 

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