Nahiossi Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 G'day Folks! My current category is Wrangler (age based) utilising a mule ear shotgun, a Winchester Model 1866 clone and Uberti cattlemen (rifle and revolvers are 38 Special) – all using smokeless powder loads. Whilst this is a fine setup and tons of fun, it is only temporary as my eventual goal is to shoot black powder in duelist or double duelist style but without specific costume requirements. One of the driving factors is that I want to shoot firearms that firearms that I do not use in my other competitions. The other factor is to try and shoot with historical accuracy (if not actual “hitting the target” accuracy!) Hence a deep-set hankering to shoot black powder in a percussion revolver. The way I read it, either Frontier Cartridge (where my current equipment is allowed) or Frontiersman (but I would need to replace my current revolvers with cap and ball pistols) best fit. This raises a question that my studies have been unable to answer (so far) - Was it commonplace for people to carry percussion pistols along with a cartridge fed lever action rifle? And as a follow up question, what do you guys recommend for a “first” cap and ball pistol? Some of the reading I have done suggests a 36 caliber 1851 Navy but I don’t know if I would be better off with an 1860 Army or 1851 Navy (not discounting the various Remingtons also available). Is there a major difference between 1851 and 1860/1861 revolvers? Please bear in mind that I am located in Australia and we do not have the wide variety of gunsmiths available to tune up a firearm for Single Action shooting so my preference would be something that is fairly reliable/useable “out of the box”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster Ron Wayne Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 1. Yes you figure the Henry rifle was out in 1860 ! That was the first successful lever rifle in 44 rimfire . All Pistols was Cap and Ball. 2. No Gun smiths around ? Buy ROA Ruger Old Army's Rooster . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Fly, SASS #25397 Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 I have been shooting C&P for years now. I have two 51s, five 60s, two Remingtons (all .44s) and my favorite, a 62 Police in .36. I cannot speak to Ruger Old Army, but I think they may be harder to find. First I would suggest handling Army vs Navy grips and deciding which is more comfortable for you. I personally prefer shooting main matches with my 60 Armies, and/or a 60 and the 62. I rarely shoot the Remingtons and do not really like them for CAS. I almost always use two sets of pistols and change out half way through before they get too fouled. I suggest that if you can, examine a few new ones before purchase and make sure it functions properly while advancing the cylinders, indexing, and locking. If so, they can be used right out of the box, although maybe a little rough. I am not a gunsmith, but I did go though the tips in the links below to improve function and learn a lot about the inner functions of the guns. All of my colt replicas are now better tuned and reliable. I swear by Slix-Shot nipples and Federal #10 Caps. I recommend BP substitute APP 3f (if available to you), or another non-corrosive sub. Pure black works too, just be more diligent in cleaning soon after. I usually load up at the unloading table and cover the unloading process while I am there. Use balls that fit snugly, slightly larger than your cylinders before seating. Some folks use wads under the ball, I use a 50/50 mix of beeswax and lard over the ball which works well in the Texas summer heat. In cooler weather use more lard, less beeswax. Some type of lube is essential to soften the fouling. My rifle is an Uberti 73 in 44-40, and shotgun is a hammerless 12 ga double using brass shells. Invaluable info on BP shooting can be found here: Captain Baylor's Ranger Camp Abilene's Site Thanks to Prairie Dawg for these links and Larson Pettifogger for the info: Piettas: http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=5659.0 Ubertis: http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=7988.0 --Dawg If anything is incorrect, I am sure someone on the wire will correct me. Meanwhile, welcome to the Dark Side where the smoke and flame will double your fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 Percussion revolvers .36 caliber or larger can be used in ANY category. They must not have adjustable sights to be used in Frontiersman category. So a pair of cap guns with fixed sights is legal in EVERY SASS category. You can tune your Colt Style open top cap guns yourself using Pettifoggers shop guides. I'm no gunsmith and have done it on several pairs. .44 balls make more noise on the target, sometimes a hit with a .36 is called a miss. So buy ROAs if you can, Uberti .44s if you can't and tune them yourself. Go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 I shoot Frontier Cartridge with both Ruger Old Armys and Ruger Old Vaqueros (cartridge guns). At major matches or during wet weather I shoot the cartridge guns as they are more reliable. However the ROAs are more fun. I don't shoot the ROAs duelist as they are heavy revolvers. For the Plainsman side match I have a set of Remington 1858 revolvers that are easier to hold single handed. Colt pattern percussion revolvers are more ergonomic and I suggest you try them. I use Triple Seven in all my revolvers. Most shooters have settled on APP. It works well and has minimal recoil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Henry Quick Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 10 hours ago, Nahiossi said: G'day Folks! ...The other factor is to try and shoot with historical accuracy... G'day, Mate! If historical accuracy is a concern, then the ROA is not the gun for you. Great gun, but it has no historical basis. J-BAR's comment about Pettifoggers shop guides is spot on. I have Remington and I'm thinking of moving over to '51 Navies because they have a better heft and balance, or so everyone seems to tell me... The nice thing about Remingtons is that they almost never have cap jams, so if you can't or you're not willing to modify a Colt, you might have better luck shooting Remmies. The thing I don't like about my Remmies is they have a very long reach to the hammer, so I slow down somewhat extra compared to my 73's in order to make sure I'm handling them safely. Also, I've read lately that they suffer from fouling drag with cartridge conversion cylinders, but that's not an issue when shooting C&B because it only makes sense to wipe them down as you're loading for the next stage. I liberally lube the cylinder pin and hole with Bore Butter before a match, wipe the cylinder face before each reloading and I never experience drag. I suppose I have medium size hands, so if you have large hands and aren't slowed down by the long reach, then the lack of drag or cap jams might make Remmies your best choice. Otherwise, I recommend you look to the Colts/clones. BTW, my favorite rifle came from Lithgow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Monger Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 I have no idea what products are available in Australia. True black or subs will both work just fine in your cattleman and the 66. Just clean them completely with soap and warm water and relube them with olive oil inside and out. 1851 and 1860 revolvers are probably the most plentiful so the feel of the grip and balance in your hand should help you chose. I have handled a few of the current production Pietta revolvers and they are very well fitted and finished. My shinny new pair of 1860s took only the slightest amount of polishing to run smoothly and jam free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 12 hours ago, Nahiossi said: G'day Folks! My current category is Wrangler (age based) utilising a mule ear shotgun, a Winchester Model 1866 clone and Uberti cattlemen (rifle and revolvers are 38 Special) – all using smokeless powder loads. Whilst this is a fine setup and tons of fun, it is only temporary as my eventual goal is to shoot black powder in duelist or double duelist style but without specific costume requirements. One of the driving factors is that I want to shoot firearms that firearms that I do not use in my other competitions. The other factor is to try and shoot with historical accuracy (if not actual “hitting the target” accuracy!) Hence a deep-set hankering to shoot black powder in a percussion revolver. The way I read it, either Frontier Cartridge (where my current equipment is allowed) or Frontiersman (but I would need to replace my current revolvers with cap and ball pistols) best fit. This raises a question that my studies have been unable to answer (so far) - Was it commonplace for people to carry percussion pistols along with a cartridge fed lever action rifle? And as a follow up question, what do you guys recommend for a “first” cap and ball pistol? Some of the reading I have done suggests a 36 caliber 1851 Navy but I don’t know if I would be better off with an 1860 Army or 1851 Navy (not discounting the various Remingtons also available). Is there a major difference between 1851 and 1860/1861 revolvers? Please bear in mind that I am located in Australia and we do not have the wide variety of gunsmiths available to tune up a firearm for Single Action shooting so my preference would be something that is fairly reliable/useable “out of the box”. I'll be the first to say that if you plan on going for historical accuracy, then you need to ditch the 38/357. There. I said it. Now back to the real questions, the 51's should have the same grip as your cattleman. If you get an older pietta, the grip profile may be wrong. Using Larsen's tuning article will fix that, as he has a section on how to make the grip accurate. If the cattleman's you are using are too small for your hands, then the 60 might be a better match. Or the Remington of course. I don't know the Aussie gun laws, so you'll have to let us know how you get the guns to you. Cabelas is always having good deals on cap guns, but I don't know if they will ship to you. If you are really serious about cap guns, I would recommend taking a look at the long hunter set. A bit more expensive, but with the work already done to make them extremely reliable. Again, I don't know the process of getting them into country though so that might also be an option not available to you. Good luck. All this talk is making me want to go out and shoot my 2nd gen colt 51's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond Curly SASS#57086 Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 I have 1851's, 1861's, and 1860 and like all of them. Once you tune then and work on the hammers they are very dependable. I like the Army grip because it fits my grip better. I shoot both 36 caliber and 44 caliber but it is correct that the 36 will be scored as misses more than the 44's do. I have ROA's and prefer the open tops but Rugers are fun to shoot as well. My son is now living in Perth and we have a trip planned for next fall for a month vacation. Want me to bring along a few revolvers with me? Shooting black in cartridges is fun but not near as much fun to me as C&B revolvers. You can't go wrong with anything you decide on as long as you shoot the holy black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nahiossi Posted May 17, 2017 Author Share Posted May 17, 2017 As usual folks on the Wire are a smart bunch and happy to share their wisdom! Australia does have strict regulations around firearms and in particular handguns; couple this with a poor exchange rate and a smaller shooting community, it means that you just have to look a it harder to find someone that can get you what you need (whether it be firearms or gunsmithing). But this is still easier than the incredible number of hoops and government red tape you have to deal with when importing your own firearms (but thanks for the kind offers!). I also agree with the comments regarding the calibre of my rifle. However, my budget for now sees me having to keep the 38 special. Plus I already have all the gear for reloading 38 special and won't need to get that much more kit to reload in black powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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