WTC Shotgun Shells

[McCandless]

Let's take a look at the context and intent of the rule...

From the Shooters Handbook page 22:

Failure to stage firearms or ammunition at the designated position(s)/location(s) is the fault of the competitor and scored as a procedural unless the competitor is able to correct the situation, unassisted, while in the process of completing the stage under time. The penalty for using "illegally acquired" ammunition (i.e., not carried to the line/staged by the shooter in an approved manner) is a procedural. Any targets hit using that ammo are scored as MISSES. NO adjustments will be made to the stage raw time.

 

In context, the wording of the rule is to prevent a shooter from being given ammo from another shooter while under time, or pulling out of an unapproved orifice, cleavage, or what have you... doesn't make a difference if it's at a monthly or multi-day match.   

 

** Edit - I see PW has responded to this, eloquently.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

...and to Wyatt...

here's your STAR!

 

[Null N. Void]

Thanks PWB. 

[Wyatt]

11 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

...and to Wyatt...

here's your STAR!

 

 

Thanks fer the Star!

 

I guess the TO just got lucky when he make a  'No Call' call 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I could be wrong, but I don't think WYATT is saying its just a monthly match in order for the rules to have leniency.   But rather to inform everyone that it didn't occur during one of the recent big matches.

 

..........Widder

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Are you kidding me?

Everyone that is calling for misses and "P's", please let me know where you shoot so I can avoid.

 

The "line" is the point upon the stage begins. If the shells were upon the shooter at the beginning of the stage in an approved manner; the shells are legal and usable.

The shells were carried to the line legally.

They were used legally.

 

Doggone, are you folks so itching to penalize and find fault that you have forgotten what we are supposed to be doing here?

 

Be safe, have fun and don't be a hard ass.

 

Stop parsing rules, playing semantics games and stop looking for every opportunity to show how clever you are that you figured out a way to penalize someone for a common and zero harm/ zero impact occurance.

Couldn't have said it better myself! Geeezz...this is turning into a hard ass sport! What happened to the "friendliest folks" you'd ever want to meet"? As an RO I'd be more than glad to give a shooter some extra shells! If that's illegal it shouldn't be!! 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

7 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Couldn't have said it better myself! Geeezz...this is turning into a hard ass sport! What happened to the "friendliest folks" you'd ever want to meet"? As an RO I'd be more than glad to give a shooter some extra shells! If that's illegal it shouldn't be!! 

 

As long as it's BEFORE THE BEEP,  there would be NO PROBLEM doing so.  

[Rye Miles #13621]

1 minute ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

As long as it's BEFORE THE BEEP,  there would be NO PROBLEM doing so.  

Thanks PaleWolf!!!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

3 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Thanks PaleWolf!!!

 

See the last post on the first page of this thread. 

[Yusta B.]

So ammo does not have to be "carried to the line" by the shooter, it must be acquired prior to the beep. I'm just trying to understand the rule.

[Grizzly Dave]

Now Wyatt, you could have done better than that, should have made it that the shooter stuff shells in his belt in an unknown location for a total of six, used four shells during the stage so that folks would also be wondering how many of the borrowed shells were used, was it two, or was it four...

 

Not that it matters with the proper call, but it would have spiced things up a little bit.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Dang Null..

We got it right..

Reckon my (our) first thoughts were correct.. 

 

Rance 

Thinkin.. "Lucky Dog!" 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

19 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

So ammo does not have to be "carried to the line" by the shooter, it must be acquired prior to the beep. I'm just trying to understand the rule.

 

As long as everything the shooter needs to complete the stage (ammo, legal firearms/equipment, category-specific accoutrements, etc) is in place BEFORE THE BEEP, the shooter is "good to go".

REF the last post on page one.

 

[mean gun mark]

I would give the shooter some of my sg loads.......oh just ignore that black stripe on em

[Grouchy Spike]

Good Stuff!  Until the Beep!  Thanks, PWB.

[Wyatt]

6 minutes ago, Grizzly Dave said:

Now Wyatt, you could have done better than that, should have made it that the shooter stuff shells in his belt in an unknown location for a total of six, used four shells during the stage so that folks would also be wondering how many of the borrowed shells were used, was it two, or was it four...

 

Not that it matters with the proper call, but it would have spiced things up a little bit.

 

Dave, I really can't make this stuff up. I thought the feather lite detail added a lot to the story.............and true 

[Yusta B.]

25 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

As long as everything the shooter needs to complete the stage (ammo, legal firearms/equipment, category-specific accoutrements, etc) is in place BEFORE THE BEEP, the shooter is "good to go".

REF the last post on page one.

 

Of course I will comply with the ruling but the phrase "carried to the line" is totally misleading to me. "Until the beep" would be more clear.

 

[Grouchy Spike]

2 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

Of course I will comply with the ruling but the phrase "carried to the line" is totally misleading to me. "Until the beep" would be more clear.
+1
 

 

[Yusta B.]

3 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

You want to play semantics games? Fine.

The rule does NOT define how long the shells must be carried or from where (what location {guncart, loading table, automobile, etc.})  the shells must be carried.

 

So - if the shooter doesn't move after they accept the shells after they are at the starting position they are in violation of the rules ?

"Carried to the line" refers to a place in space. "Until the beep" refers to a point in time. Two complete different specifications. They may be, but are not necessarily the same.

[Too Tall Bob]

And - ironically there are both definitions in the RO-1 handbook.  In one point it is defined as from beep to beep And in the second it is defined as  from the loading table to the unloading table. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

24 minutes ago, Too Tall Bob said:

And - ironically there are both definitions in the RO-1 handbook.  In one point it is defined as from beep to beep And in the second it is defined as  from the loading table to the unloading table. 

 

Two terms...two definitions"

 

Firing line – From first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as cleared at the unloading table.

 

Stage aka “the line” – synonymous with “Course of Fire” from the beep of the timer once the shooter has signified “ready” to the last shot fired. Also refers to those location(s) from which the shooter actively engages targets.

[Too Tall Bob]

Thanks for the clarification. 

[Blackey Cole]

Thanks PW I thought it was a no call.

[Wyatt]

11 hours ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

I could be wrong, but I don't think WYATT is saying its just a monthly match in order for the rules to have leniency.   But rather to inform everyone that it didn't occur during one of the recent big matches.

 

..........Widder

 

 

............Widder

 

Both!!!

 

It has been implied there are two sets of rules. Local rules being called/not called correctly/incorrectly and big match only rules

 

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

21 hours ago, Null N. Void said:

It was in his belt prior to starting the stage.  That's the approved manner.  We don't regulate, nor do I think we want to, how SG ammo gets from the vehicle to the gun ctinart to the belt or pocket prior to starting the stage.  We don't load the SG.  There is no safety issue like some of the other rules regarding hammer down on an empty cylinder or shotguns open and empty.

 

Hammer down on an empty cylinder will result in 5 misses...

 

Edit -- whoops and oops, should have prefaced with the disclaimer "Pet Peeve Alert".

 

Also, to the pard advocating directing the shooter to the ULT to unload all guns before going to the cart to retrieve needed shells -- huh? Say what? Nay nay a thousand times nay, there is never any justification for that. Just stage the guns, run to the cart get the shells return to the line re-holster the pistols and continue to march. Easy peazy

[Null N. Void]

I agree on the simple way to get the shooter the SG shells that he needs, which is what I said at the start.  However, I will follow the ROC directions whatever they were.  If necessary to send the shooter all the way back to prevent a problem I'd do it.  As PWB made the ruling, non of the extended options were necessary.  Handing the shooter SG shells or letting him go back to his cart after he safely stages his guns is great!

 

If you have pet peeves, please start another thread on them.  I'm just not that perfect all the time on terminology and people understood what we are talking about in relation to SASS rules.

 

NNV

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

29 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

I agree on the simple way to get the shooter the SG shells that he needs, which is what I said at the start.  However, I will follow the ROC directions whatever they were.  If necessary to send the shooter all the way back to prevent a problem I'd do it.  As PWB made the ruling, non of the extended options were necessary.  Handing the shooter SG shells or letting him go back to his cart after he safely stages his guns is great!

 

If you have pet peeves, please start another thread on them.  I'm just not that perfect all the time on terminology and people understood what we are talking about in relation to SASS rules.

 

NNV

Howdy Pard,

 

Maybe this will help.

 

To make “a long story short,” the shooter may leave the line only before the beep to make corrections for things like unloaded guns, missing SG shells or reload ammunition... 

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Null N. Void]

Of course, before the beep.  The rules state you can't leave the line after the stage starts.

 

NNV

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

38 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

Of course, before the beep.  The rules state you can't leave the line after the stage starts.

 

NNV

Sorry, I must have misunderstood your post. I thought there was some confusion.

[Two Spurs]

Best soap opera TV voice......

 

Thanks  for joining us in another thrilling episode from "As the Wagon Wheel Turns". Executive Producer Wyatt  (Evil Black Star Jedi of Lurking and Instigating)

 

[Joe LaFives #5481]

22 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

As long as everything the shooter needs to complete the stage (ammo, legal firearms/equipment, category-specific accoutrements, etc) is in place BEFORE THE BEEP, the shooter is "good to go".

REF the last post on page one.

 

Finally - good sense prevails.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

54 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

Finally - good sense prevails.

A rare commodity indeed.

 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

2 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Howdy Pard,

 

Maybe this will help.

 

To make “a long story short,” the shooter may leave the line only before the beep to make corrections for things like unloaded guns, missing SG shells or reload ammunition... 

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

And all that because somebody's ego couldn't handle getting beat by someone who ran some errands during the stage. Haha. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

10 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

And all that because somebody's ego couldn't handle getting beat by someone who ran some errands during the stage. Haha. 

 

I don't know if "egos" were involved in the decision, but the issue kinda "came to the table" when a member of the ROC left the line mid-stage to retrieve SG ammo from his guncart during a State Championship match shortly after the "unless the competitor is able to correct the situation, unassisted, while in the process of completing the stage under time" rule went into effect.

 

 

[Moog]

I think the guy shoud have got 4 misses, a p, sdq,mdq,kicked off the range, the cops called pepper sprayed, tazed, and arrested. that'll teach'em.