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WTC Shotgun Shells


Wyatt

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Round count is 4+ shotgun

 

Shooter stages his/her long guns and realizes they only have five feather lite shells in their belt. The shooter turns to the TO and takes 4 feather lite shells from the TO's belt and positions the shells in the first four loops of their shotgun belt. Shooter declares "Ready" and away they go. During the stage the shooter uses the four borrowed shells. After the stage the shooter gives the TO back 4 feather lite shells.

 

WTC?

 

Now remember...........this is just a monthly match ;)

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If it all happened prior to initiating the stage, no call.  It's no different that having someone bringing them additional rounds from their cart prior to the timer going off. 

 

NNV

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13 minutes ago, Grouchy Spike said:

Illegal ammo, not carried to the line by the shooter: P + 4 misses

+1

 

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From the Shooters Handbook page 22:

Failure to stage firearms or ammunition at the designated position(s)/location(s) is the fault of the competitor and scored as a procedural unless the competitor is able to correct the situation, unassisted, while in the process of completing the stage under time. The penalty for using "illegally acquired" ammunition (i.e., NOT carried to the line/staged by the shooter in an approved manner) is a PROCEDURAL. Any targets hit using that ammo are scored as MISSES. NO adjustments will be made to the stage raw time.

 

 

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It doesn't matter where he got the shells prior to timer going off.  He has them.  They were carried to the line.  The purpose of the rule is to prevent people from giving ammo to the shooter in the middle of the stage if they forgot some.  It doesn't matter how they get into the belt prior to the timer going off.  There is no difference if he borrows some from anybody or safely stages his guns and goes back to the cart to get some more.  Let's not over complicate this.

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Did not the Shooter stage his weapons on the line, and then get ammo from the TO?  The shooter didn't carry ammo to the line in an approved manner.  And the Shooter can't leave the line and return to the cart for anything unless his weapons are cleared.

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It was in his belt prior to starting the stage.  That's the approved manner.  We don't regulate, nor do I think we want to, how SG ammo gets from the vehicle to the gun cart to the belt or pocket prior to starting the stage.  We don't load the SG.  There is no safety issue like some of the other rules regarding hammer down on an empty cylinder or shotguns open and empty.

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I have read the rule book many times and am always amazed on how we can interpret it and still be friends.  I consider it an approved manner if ammo is in the belt prior to starting the stage regardless of where it came from.  I await PWB and will abide by his decision.

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Rule says carried to the line. He staged his guns, he was at the line. He borrowed SG shells which he didn't carry to the line. He fired the borrowed shells. P + 4 misses.

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A disagreement about the rules shouldn't cause a loss of friendship - it's a learning experience! 

 

P 22 SHB:  "A shooter MAY NOT leave the line once the stage has begun to retrieve ammo or firearms until all firearms brought to the line are verified as clear. Penalty for violation is a Stage Disqualification."

 

The key word is 'begun' - so perhaps a shooter could stage his weapons including pistols and return to the cart for ammo  if he hasn't fired a shot.  Haven't seen it done, but maybe it's permitted?  If so, then the shooter will have carried the ammo to the line  in an approved manner.  But that's not how the shooter acquired his ammo according to the OP.

 

Great discussion!!!!!!!!

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He returned 4 unfired shells to the TO after the stage was finished. therefore he did not use inappropriate ammo.  No call, next shooter.

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1 hour ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

No call.. 

Shooter borrowed shells before stage started..

Reckon I'm sayin' "a round hasn't gone down range.."

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' I like yer title :D:D

 

1 hour ago, Null N. Void said:

If it all happened prior to initiating the stage, no call.  It's no different that having someone bringing them additional rounds from their cart prior to the timer going off. 

 

NNV

 

Null.. 

I'm thinkin I (we) made the wrong call on this..:rolleyes:

Don't dig yer Spurs in too deep..:)

 

Rance ;)

Just sayin'..:huh:

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"During the stage the shooter uses the four borrowed shells. "

He used the very ones he borrowed - guilty.

 

Edit: If he'd borrowed them at the loading table I think he would get a pass.

And - that's a pretty good title.

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If a shot has not gone down range, the stage has not started and he/she had not committed any other infraction.  The shooter can, at their option, go to the unloading table, unload all his/her guns and return to his/her cart.  Then he/she can load his/her sg belt, go to the loading table, load the pistols and rifle, and then go to the line and restart the stage.  I think this is over doing it, but legal.  I'd just rather give him the shells and shoot the stage.

 

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Once the shooter leaves the loading table he is on the line. The rules apply from the loading table  until guns have been cleared at the unloading table.

 

BS 

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Maybe better wording that complies with the intent is that all ammunition must be on the person prior to the start of the stage.  Carried is not defined.  It could be carried from the vehicle, from the cart, from the loading table, from another person. etc. to the start of the stage.  In any case, no one in the scenario was trying to do something unsafely or evade a rule, as I see it.  As I said, I await PWB.

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Are you kidding me?

Everyone that is calling for misses and "P's", please let me know where you shoot so I can avoid.

 

The "line" is the point upon the stage begins. If the shells were upon the shooter at the beginning of the stage in an approved manner; the shells are legal and usable.

The shells were carried to the line legally.

They were used legally.

 

Doggone, are you folks so itching to penalize and find fault that you have forgotten what we are supposed to be doing here?

 

Be safe, have fun and don't be a hard ass.

 

Stop parsing rules, playing semantics games and stop looking for every opportunity to show how clever you are that you figured out a way to penalize someone for a common and zero harm/ zero impact occurance.

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2 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

Maybe better wording that complies with the intent is that all ammunition must be on the person prior to the start of the stage.  Carried is not defined.  It could be carried from the vehicle, from the cart, from the loading table, from another person. etc. to the start of the stage.  In any case, no one in the scenario was trying to do something unsafely or evade a rule, as I see it.  As I said, I await PWB.

It says "carried to the line". When you arrive at "the line" you need to have all the ammunition you are going to  shoot during the stage. If you acquire any ammo after you arrive at the line and you use it during the stage, you have violated the rules.

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7 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Are you kidding me?

Everyone that is calling for misses and "P's", please let me know where you shoot so I can avoid.

 

The "line" is the point upon the stage begins. If the shells were upon the shooter at the beginning of the stage in an approved manner; the shells are legal and usable.

The shells were carried to the line legally.

They were used legally.

 

Doggone, are you folks so itching to penalize and find fault that you have forgotten what we are supposed to be doing here?

 

Be safe, have fun and don't be a hard ass.

 

Stop parsing rules, playing semantics games and stop looking for every opportunity to show how clever you are that you figured out a way to penalize someone for a common and zero harm/ zero impact occurance.

I disagree - "the line" is where you shoot from. If you have staged your guns you at "the line".

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2 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

It says "carried to the line". When you arrive at "the line" you need to have all the ammunition you are going to  shoot during the stage. If you acquire any ammo after you arrive at the line and you use it during the stage, you have violated the rules.

You want to play semantics games? Fine.

The rule does NOT define how long the shells must be carried or from where (what location {guncart, loading table, automobile, etc.})  the shells must be carried.

So by that omission of statement, as long as the shooter moves (any distance, any manner), prior to the stage start and the shells are upon the the shooter (carried) in an approved manner.  The shells are legal.

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"Be safe, have fun and don't be a hard ass. "

 

I agree.

 

If PWB says we can't give a shooter shells prior to the start of the stage, as the TO, I'll direct the shooter to the unloading table and tell him to unload, reload and restart the stage.  I don't want to take the fun out by telling him/her that they are trapped because they don't have any SG shells in their belt and they can't do anything but shoot and take the 4 misses for the missing SG shells.

 

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1 minute ago, Null N. Void said:

"Be safe, have fun and don't be a hard ass. "

 

I agree.

 

If PWB says we can't give a shooter shells prior to the start of the stage, as the TO, I'll direct the shooter to the unloading table and tell him to unload, reload and restart the stage.  I don't want to take the fun out by telling him/her that they are trapped because they don't have any SG shells in their belt and they can't do anything but shoot and take the 4 misses for the missing SG shells.

 

Absolutely agree with this.

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At a "big" match there might be a call. But a monthly, no way. Not unless somebody is overly anal retentive OCD rules- super police trying to ruin somebody's day.

 

On several occasions at monthlies I have seen a shooter run out of shotgun shells at the line while shooting. Between friends I have seen the shooter reach back and grab shotgun shells out of the TOs belt and everyone got to laugh at it. I have also seen the TO or even a spotter hand additional shells to the shooter to complete the stage. Generally everyone gets a laugh out of it and the shooter remembers to bring more sales to the line next time. This game is supposed to be fun.

 

But like I said, at a "big" match if you forget to bring ammo, that one's on you. I saw that recently at a 2 day match. Shooter just shrugged his shoulders and took the misses. Better luck next time.

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Not awarding the penalty to the OP Shooter, assuming at the moment that be the correct call, penalizes everyone else in the match.  Why call  Misses and Procedurals but not this penalty? Ignoring ALL the penalties would add to the enjoyment of the match.  I disagree that we can relax or ignore the rules in a monthly match. Enforce them all or enforce none.  If I run out of ammo because I didn't bring enough to the line, then I earned some  misses.

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6 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

At a "big" match there might be a call. But a monthly, no way. Not unless somebody is overly anal retentive OCD rules- super police trying to ruin somebody's day.

 

On several occasions at monthlies I have seen a shooter run out of shotgun shells at the line while shooting. Between friends I have seen the shooter reach back and grab shotgun shells out of the TOs belt and everyone got to laugh at it. I have also seen the TO or even a spotter hand additional shells to the shooter to complete the stage. Generally everyone gets a laugh out of it and the shooter remembers to bring more sales to the line next time. This game is supposed to be fun.

 

But like I said, at a "big" match if you forget to bring ammo, that one's on you. I saw that recently at a 2 day match. Shooter just shrugged his shoulders and took the misses. Better luck next time.

I have seen those calls made & they are up to the TO and the posse. The problem becomes what do you let slide & what needs to be called. I feel the best way is to call the infractions. The TO may choose to call or not call/report the penalty or not. All you can do is call what you see. The call is at the discretion of the TO/ posse/ club. Call what you see & move on.

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17 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

"Be safe, have fun and don't be a hard ass. "

 

I agree.

 

If PWB says we can't give a shooter shells prior to the start of the stage, as the TO, I'll direct the shooter to the unloading table and tell him to unload, reload and restart the stage.  I don't want to take the fun out by telling him/her that they are trapped because they don't have any SG shells in their belt and they can't do anything but shoot and take the 4 misses for the missing SG shells.

 

A much simpler way would be to have the shooter ground their guns (including pistols), go get their shells from their cart and come back. 0 seconds will not slow the match.

 

Just for the record..... I would hand them the shells they needed prior to starting the clock.

If I wanted to punish them..... I would have a black powder shooter loan him some shells prior to the clock.

 

 

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Whatever match you have, I will call it the same.  I try to be fair so that anyone that goes to a state match from a local understands the rules that they will face.  However, if someone is short on SG shells and grabs some off my belt, I'll laugh with them as they shoot and they always know they will get a penalty.  I just want to be sure that at a local match I give them the official call on a situation.  As a caveat, I will NEVER allow an unsafe condition.

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Under the following definition of "the line", the shooter has until "the BEEP" to rectify any PRE-STAGE errors, including failure to have enough proper ammo with which to engage the stage (something the T/O is supposed to look for when performing SHOOTER INVENTORY before the stage begins (REF RO1 V. 21.6 p.3) re ways to assist the shooter.)

... this would include SG ammo (as well as revolvers left on the LT).

 

Stage aka “the line” – synonymous with “Course of Fire” from the beep of the timer once the shooter has signified “readyto the last shot fired.
RO1 Version 21.6 "Glossary of Terms"
 
The intent of the following rule is to prevent/penalize such "correction" (or outside "assistance") DURING the stage engagement:
Failure to stage firearms or ammunition at the designated position(s)/location(s) is the fault of the competitor and scored as a procedural unless the competitor is able to correct the situation, unassisted, while in the process of completing the stage under time. The penalty for using "illegally acquired" ammunition (i.e., NOT carried to the line/staged by the shooter in an approved manner) is a PROCEDURAL. Any targets hit using that ammo are scored as MISSES. NO adjustments will be made to the stage raw time.

 

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