Two gun Ted Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 I'm new to CAS, going to my first match in a week. Right now I have a win 76 in 45-60 and u what to get a pistol caliber rifle for the matches. So I'm looking for input. My choice is 1866 or 1873 Win, I'd prefer 44-40 since my pistols are and I want to shoot black powder. I'm also considering 38-40. What's your opinions in the direction to take. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Since your pistols are .44-40 ,I'd get the rifle in that caliber. Nothing against .38-40, but it's less effort to reload in one caliber instead of two. And you without a doubt roll your own in this game. Especially if you wanna shoot black powder. As to 66 vs 73, other than visually, the guns are virtually identical when it comes to functionality and the internal action. So's the Henry except for how you load it for that matter. About the only "difference" between a 66 and 73 is that with a 73, you can go with a reproduction, or a real one made back in the day. With the 66 you pretty much have to go with a reproduction. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 If you are going for historically accurate then the closest current production reproduction you can get today is an 1873 44-40. Either "Winchester" or Uberti made. As you are most likely aware, 38 Special and 45 Colt were not offerings in the original Winchester rifles. They are today and sell quite well however un-historically accurate they might be. But they are a lot of fun to shoot in this game. The 1866 reproduction is a great choice however it was never offered in 44-40. Its original caliber was 44 Henry Rimfire or something to that effect and that ammo has not been made for a long long time. The 1873 however was originally offered in 44-40, so there you go. Oh, and welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 The 1866 is marginally harder to get into the action for a thorough cleaning, and also appears to have a marginally larger stock drop. The closest you could EASILY get to a *kind of* historically correct chambering in an 1866 would be a .45 Colt using Cowboy .45 Special ammo and a modified carrier, which would be pretty close to a .44 Henry Central Fire, which was chambered toward the end of production. A .44 special version using a modified carrier, and cut down .44 spl cases, would end up even closer. On the other hand, the original 1873 was .44-40, and the chambering is readily available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two gun Ted Posted April 23, 2017 Author Share Posted April 23, 2017 Thanks for all the help, I now know what I can't find a 66 in 44-40. J Bar Binks I learned about carriers in these old guns recently. I made 11 perfect 45-50 cartridges for my 45-60 hoping to up the capacity to find out the actual shell holds the rest in the tube. Oops, fail but the shoot nice single shot. I'll probably go with the 73 since it will match my 76 and 44-40 Is more available in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ T. Sites Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 One thing to keep in mind the 73 has trigger saftey , which helps when shooting fast getting a out of battery discharge. The 66 doesnt. However I do love the look of a 66. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 56 minutes ago, Two gun Ted said: I'm new to CAS, going to my first match in a week. My choice is 1866 or 1873 Win, I'd prefer 44-40 since my pistols are and I want to shoot black powder. I'm also considering 38-40. What's your opinions in the direction to take. I know people shoot 38 with squib loads to win but I'm more into historic aspect. Thanks Howdy Two Gun and welcome. The best thing you can do is go to several matches before you spend one dime. Try the different firearms to get a feel for what suits you. Like J Bar said the 66 is a little harder to get to the action, and the 66 lacks the lever safety found on the 73. You really don't need to break the rifles down more than a couple of times a year even shooting BP. As for people shooting 38 squib loads to win just does not apply, of course if they shot squib loads we would spend all day with squib rods removing boolets. Yes there are folks that shoot light loads, some for speed, less recoil, comfort, affordable, family.....etc...etc. I shoot nothing but real BP in 38, 45 and 44-40, I chose the 38s most of the time to reduce the cost. SASS is a fantasy sport/game, each to his own fantasy as long as they stay within the rules "gamer" is not a dirty word. Several World, State and Regional Champs have proven more than once that you can shoot big bore and win. One year Bud was using his fathers big bore guns and was on track for another world title until he had a gun malfunction. Thousands of rounds down range and practice, practice, practice is the only wining recipe. Good Luck on your first match JefroRelax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two gun Ted Posted April 23, 2017 Author Share Posted April 23, 2017 Good to know, while the trigger safety can be annoying blowing up a 1200 dollar gun out if battery could be more troublesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 For what it's worth, the earliest reproduction '66's that were imported by Navy Arms did have the lever safety. Also, since they did not lengthen the frame any from the originals to acommodate the longer .44-40 case, they actually cut a notch into the top of the receiver to allow the spent cases to clear the action and eject. I know this cuz I have one. If you want a '66 and want to be as close as possible to "authentic" then looking for one of these early ones on the used market would be another option. And the lever safety eliminates the out of battery discharge danger that some have mentioned. Query: Are the actually any documented instances of this actually happening? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two gun Ted Posted April 23, 2017 Author Share Posted April 23, 2017 I have acquired all my guns in a super trade deal so they aren't ideal but I got them. Cas has been out of my price range foe years. Have a 76 in 45-60, two cattlemans in 45 long and one 44-40. I just bought a 1886 12 gauge fun finish off my collection. May go 38 on the new rifle and might get rid of the 45 long. I cast my own bullets and lead isn't free anymore so I can see the benefits of smaller cals . So depends on what I can afford too. 38-40 and 44-40 are my preference but is a 45 long or 357 come up I may take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two gun Ted Posted April 23, 2017 Author Share Posted April 23, 2017 How does 45 and 38 spc work with BP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 The .38 is so-so. Thr .45 terrible. If you want to shoot BP get the .44-40. The 66 is available in .44-40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two gun Ted Posted April 23, 2017 Author Share Posted April 23, 2017 Good to know because my 45 make a mess out if the cases with smokeless powder. If I go 38 I was thinking 38-40, that would do well with BP right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said: The .38 is so-so. Thr .45 terrible. If you want to shoot BP get the .44-40. The 66 is available in .44-40. No idea about the 38 but 45 Colt works great for making A LOT of smoke. I think Larsen means terrible because the 45 Colt with BP tends to get very dirty as opposed to 44-40. And it does. I have shot a 45 Colt rifle quite a bit with 45 Colt BP and love it. Well, the smoke and boom anyway. Cleaning is however, a bit more involved as blowback residue gets into the carrier, bolt, action... 44-40 does not as it seals the chamber preventing this blowback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 A ".38" is usually a reference to the .38 Special. It bears zero resemblance to the .38-40. Which by the way is actually .40 caliber. (Of couse a .38 Special is actually .35 caliber.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 3 hours ago, Two gun Ted said: I know people shoot 38 with squib loads to win but I'm more into historic aspect. Thanks Welcome to SASS and CAS. But where did you gather this inaccurate piece of information? Those who encounter squib loads during a match are far from winning. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two gun Ted Posted April 23, 2017 Author Share Posted April 23, 2017 sorry yes and actual squib load is when the bullets fails to leave the barrel. I meant very light loads. Yes I know the difference between 38 special and 38-40. I cast bullets for my 38/357. I assumed 38-40 being bottlenecked and originally designed for BP would be a better choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 It is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two gun Ted Posted April 23, 2017 Author Share Posted April 23, 2017 Thanks! I'll try to stick to 38-40 or 44-40 if I can. I thought 45 was going to make a mess. Sorry wasn't insulting those who shoot to win by the squib load comment. I have backed my guns off quite a bit because I see no reason to burn so much powder at close targets. I cut my rifle and pistol down about half to stay within the FPS maximums that the club sets where I am going. 11 grains of pyrodex RS In my revolver so far has shot better than Trail Boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 The 66 comes in 44-40. For me I stopped shooting my 66 when I had an out of battery discharge twice. I over ran the gun and the hammer dropped before being in battery. Not fun. Bent the lever each time. The safety on the 73 won't let that happen. Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 I have both a 66 and a 73. I've made the 73 my backup gun because of the lever safety. I find myself ejecting loaded ruounds out of the 73 when I get going fast because it doesn't go bang when my brain tells me it should have and before my brain tells me to stop, I've already ejected the round out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 73 in .44-40 is the way to go since you're pistols are in that caliber. No brainer! Think of it this way, if you were living back in the old west you would have wanted the advantage of having your pistols and rifle the same caliber which is why the .44-40 became so popular once they introduced in in handguns. Welcome to the wunnerful world of cowboy action shooting!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Pete SASS #42168 Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 I have an 1873 and an 1866 in 44-40. My "goto" rifle is the 66. Both rifles have been slicked up by cowboy smiths. The 66 is just more to my liking. Absolutely nothing wrong with the 73. I can't tell you why I prefer the 66. So, there you have it. It's very much a personal thing. If if you are shooting BP the 44-40 is your cartridge. For the rifle, flip a coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two gun Ted Posted April 24, 2017 Author Share Posted April 24, 2017 Thanks again everyone, I really like how helpful CAS people are. No matter who I talk to they are very helpful. I'll see what comes up shopping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 Our pleasure. Just wait until yore experiencing yore first cowboy match. Pay it forward. WARNING!!!! This is very addictive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafe Conager SASS #56958 Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 Ok gotta agree to disagree, I have been shooting black powder in .45 colt for 10+ years, have won state matches using both my 66 and 73. Have never had an issue with my rifles or my load. Only tear them down right before a big match such as winter range or bordertown. Good crimp plenty of lube and maybe a spirits of balistols if needed. Rafe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 In my opinion, the best course of action here is to get a 73 in 44-40 AND a 66 in 38-40. That way you get to experience both guns and both cartridges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Rufus King, Esq. Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 23 minutes ago, Redwood Kid said: In my opinion, the best course of action here is to get a 73 in 44-40 AND a 66 in 38-40. That way you get to experience both guns and both cartridges. For the 73, is it advisable to get the case hardened version? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 7 minutes ago, Rev. Rufus King, Esq. said: For the 73, is it advisable to get the case hardened version? Absolutely. Case hardened looks awesome. I should warn you, however, that I'm a looks good first kinda guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 21 minutes ago, Rev. Rufus King, Esq. said: For the 73, is it advisable to get the case hardened version? Maybe not necessarily advisable, but they sure look good. I have a friend who has two of the new "Winchesters", one is color case-hardened and the other is blued. Both are absolutely fantastic rifles and gorgeous. I would be happy with either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Rufus King, Esq. Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 Just now, Dantankerous said: Maybe not necessarily advisable, but they sure look good. I have a friend who has two of the new "Winchesters", one is color case-hardened and the other is blued. Both are absolutely fantastic rifles and gorgeous. I would be happy with either. The case hardened is a bit more expensive, but I am mostly wondering how it will wear compared to the blued version. I agree that both look great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 My Ubertu color case-hardened rifles are wearing just fine. Even with black powder usage the only real dings I get are on the wood on these rifles. I doubt it will be an issue but only time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 2 hours ago, Rev. Rufus King, Esq. said: The case hardened is a bit more expensive, but I am mostly wondering how it will wear compared to the blued version. I agree that both look great. If you are talking about the Winchester case coloring, I don't think they have been around long enough to know exactly how long it will take to wear out the colors. For the Uberti's, they have been around a very long time and most still have quite a bit of case coloring left on them. Now it's my opinion that the case coloring on the Winchesters looks much better than that on the Uberti's, probably because the Uberti's use an acid wash. I am assuming the Winchesters use bone and charcoal, but I don't know for a fact. Forgive the quality of the following photos, as I am not a photographer, but here are some examples of each. This is my Uberti case coloring: Here is my Winchester Case coloring: And here is a picture of a Winchester with blue finish for comparison: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 Personally, I think the blued Winchester rifles look fine but the color case-hardened Winchester rifles look fantastic. At least in the examples I have seen and had in my hands and drooled upon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Too Tall Bob Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 Response to the original post - since you already have 44-40's, why not look for a rifle in the same caliber.(unless you just want to add another horse to the stable) You have no need to retool for reloading, you don't have 2 VERY similar case types to deal with and no need to stock 2 different types of bullets either. I shoot 38-40's in rifle and pistols. I have a '66 as well as a '73 and shoot the stinky smokey stuff almost exclusively. The bottle neck cartridges shoot a whole bunch cleaner than straight wall ones do which equates to fewer issues on the line. I like my '73 but that '66 sure is pretty in the sunshine. The '66 balance is just a touch different too. Personal preference between models and colors really. JMHO TTB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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