Which 1873? Miroku or Uberti?

[Rev. Rufus King, Esq.]

So I am new to CAS, but I have shot a lot of IDPA and a decent amount of modern 3 gun in the past.  I have been hand loading for 15 years, and I do a lot of shooting of various sorts.  As I am gearing up for CAS, I need to choose a rifle.  The only lever gun I presently own is a Marlin 95 in .45-70.  I have pretty much settled on a 73 of some sort.  The Miroku 92's look nice, but they aren't really that much cheaper than a 73, so I might as well just get a 73.  I am looking for a rifle in 45 Colt.

 

So, I am deciding between the Uberti and the Miroku (Winchester branded).  A local shop has a 20" Uberti (Taylors) for $1050.  I handled it, and the fit finish was better than I expected.  I have not seen a 20" Miroku locally in 45 Colt, but I have handled one in 357 Mag, and I really liked.  To get one to me, it is going to cost between $1300 and $1400.  So, I am looking at about a $300 premium for the Miroku.

 

I have read a bunch of threads and articles on the merits of various rifles for CAS, but much of it is a bit dated.  What is the current thinking on Miroku vs. Uberti?

 

ETA:  I am a fairly competent amateur gun plumber.  I am pretty confident I can install a short stroke kit myself if I decide I want one.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Ummm, that info, if from here, is not "dated".   Uberti has been making much the same rifle now for 15+years. Most comments in last couple of years here directly apply.  For a pretty good thread, see:

 

http://www.sassnet.com/forums/index.php?/topic/260168-quality-difference-of-uberti-vs-winchester/#comment-3385658

 

Bottom line - parts much easier to get for Uberti.  Not simple,but MUCH easier.   Speed parts particularly easier for Uberti.  Since you seem to be a "player" and into gotta be "top of the heap" for the guns, get a Uberti.

 

Miroku - probably will have a little more value to it in ten years.  Better craftsmanship.  So new and so different from Uberti that the lack of most speed parts for Miroku is becoming pretty embarrassing for "M-Winchester" owners.

 

If you want a looker, and are willing to make/tune most things from scratch, and don't mind hunting down a scarce gun, Miroku

 

If you want a shooter you can throw on tables, won't cry if you toss other guns on top of, and need good access to go-fast parts, Uberti.   Smiths who know the guns, Uberti.   Lots of assistance with problems from here on the wire, Uberti.  Better chance of finding one in stock, Uberti.

 

Welcome to cowboy shooting, where, for almost all purposes in the sport, and if you are going to be competitive, all guns are just starter kits.  

 

Oh, and the usual new shooter plea follows - GET OUT TO A LOCAL MATCH and TRY AS MANY GUNS AS YOU CAN!   Cowboys love to loan out a gun for a stage or two.  This sport is more than just "IDPA with a good attitude and clunky guns."

 

Good luck, GJ

[Rev. Rufus King, Esq.]

Let me clarify.  I am not a "gamer."  I like to shoot and have fun doing it.  I stopped shooting IDPA because I wasn't having fun.  I found many of my fellow shooters were taking things way too seriously.  CAS is appealing to me because the people are nicer and it is more relaxed.

 

There is plenty of info on Uberti's, and I assume it is still accurate.  I have not found much on the comparative merits of the Miroku 73.  Thanks for the comments.

 

I am also open to cheaper options,  Saving money is good.  I usually prefer the "buy the best and only cry once" approach, but if I could save a substantial amount, that would be worth considering.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Well, I didn't throw out the gamer line, just player.  A competitor.  A feller who knows his way around a match and a gun.   Really, pard, WELCOME!

 

73s are the common fast gun.  Marlin 1894s are pretty close, but Remington still hasn't come back to the same quality and especially not the same production volume, as Marlin was doing 10-20 years ago.

 

See the replies on the thread I added to earlier post for more on Mirokus.  They are a great gun, but I've got 4 Uberti's and would not trade one for a Miroku. Because I need parts to be available.

 

Go to matches.   Best way to make the local friends you will need, and to learn about all the guns and try them out, too.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

I had a '92 for a couple of years, when I first started. It was pretty primitive up here. We didn't know much and there wasn't much available.

Once I tried a friends toggle action 1866, right from the box, I started my search for one.

IMHO, there is no better choice of actions for CAS than an 1860, '66 or '73

[Medicine Creek Johnny]

Have a miroku Winchester that was one of the very first set up by Joe at pioneer gun works. They are the only manufacturer of shortstroke parts for the miroku guns. I have used it as my main match gun for 4 years. Over 20000 rounds thru it and has not need any parts other than replacing the aluminum lifter block due to wear from rounds slamming into the feed ramp. Probably could have smoothed it with a file but just decided to replace it. Can't give any advice on getting parts from Winchester because I haven't needed any.  Jailmaker has one set up by jarred at long hunters and has won several state championships and annual matches with it. Have nothing against Uberti but can also highly recommend miroku guns

 

MCJ

[Russ T. Sites]

I've owned both , right now my main match rifle is the miruko been using it for 3 years and just installed a short stroke this year, never had any issues . My biggest fear is braking a spring or firing pin then I'm dead in the water to find a replacement which isn't a issue with uberti, they both can be just as smooth  ( miruko is a little smoother out of the box and has a slightly shorter stroke) both look nice depending on what model.  

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

1 hour ago, Rev. Rufus King, Esq. said:

Let me clarify.  I am not a "gamer."  I like to shoot and have fund doing it.  I stopped shooting IDPA because I wasn't having fun.  I found many of my fellow shooters were taking things way too seriously.  CAS is appealing to me because the people are nicer and it is more relaxed.

Howdy

 

Since you are so new, you probably have not run into very many 'serious' competitors in CAS. There are plenty of very serious competitors, most of them are friendly. Occasionally you will run into one who is not.

 

Regarding Miroku vs Uberti, pretty much what has been said. Uberti has been making their replica of the 1873 Winchester a lot longer than 15 years, mine was made in 1988. I believe they may have started making them in the late 1970s. Anyway, everything said is true. Much, much easier to find parts if you need them for the Uberti rifles than the Winchester/Miroku rifles. Miroku makes fine rifles, so the quality of the Miroku is probably a bit better. I'm talking about the fit and finish of the parts down inside, not on the outside.

 

If I was looking for a new lever gun for CAS, I would look for an Uberti. I mean new, I don't mean any of my antique Winchesters.

[Warden Callaway]

 

We have one of each and not shot either.  The Winchester below is in 45 Colt.  Out of the box,  the Winchester has a shorter stroke. Both are beautiful guns in a different way. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Japchester Winny's are a PITA to get parts for, no matter what model it is.

BTDT, won't buy any more of'em.......

OLG

[Lost Trail]

If you don't mind spending some time looking for 'used' guns, you can find some pretty good deals out there.

I bought my Uberti 1873 saddle ring carbine a couple years ago from an estate sale. Never been shot, safe queen that had just been sitting for years. $700.

 

Now have about $600 additional in it and it's faster than I am.

[Rye Miles #13621]

I just picked up a 66 Uberti for $600.00!!!

 

Thanks Swiss!!

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

I bought a Jeep Wrangler JK in 2008. It was the second year of the JK version and parts were unheard of. There were about 4 bumpers available and two of them cost nearly half the price of the jeep. Fast forward 9 years later and I can put just about anything I want on it for pretty darn cheap. I say this because at some point I believe there will be a ton of parts available for the Winchester if someone is patient enough. I also believe that in ten years from now the new Winchester will be what the Ruger is now and the Uberti will be what the Uberti is now. That's just an opinion though.

 

As for which is better now? Well I think everyone else has covered it. Looks and better steel go to Winchester, parts availability and speed go to Uberti. I have both and love both for those very reasons. I shoot my Winchester most of the time these days because I love the way it looks, but I do bust out the Uberti when I want to go really fast. For what it's worth, my uberti isn't short stroked either, just has had a top notch action job done on it by Jared of long hunter. So you don't have to have a short stroke if you don't want to. You can also get the Winchester for a lot cheaper than your quoted price if our very own John Barleycorn still has some. I think I paid $1200 for mine. I'll post some comparison pictures as well next week since I will have them both out shooting on Sunday.

 

The other big advantage the uberti has that I didn't see mentioned is the fact that there are almost an unlimited variety of options. The Winchester has a smaller amount of configurations, and even less calibers. With the Uberti you can get barrel lengths from 16" to 34" or so, pistol grips, checkering, etc. You can also get them in calibers that aren't available with Winchester like 38-40, 44 special, 32-20, etc. My next gun is going to be a 66, but I will probably go with Uberti because the Winchester isn't available in 38-40, nor in a carbine. And since the brass looks pretty much identical in either model, as opposed to the brilliant Winchester case coloring on the 73, there isn't a whole lot of reasons to get the Winchester other than to be the first one on the block to have one. That wins you some cool points, but not a lot of matches.

 

Speaking of caliber, since you handload anyway, you might want to take a look at 44-40. Most black powder shooters use it, but it's also great for smokeless because it seals the chamber and keeps all the internal parts clean. Even with black powder, I barely have to clean them, whereas my 66 in 45 colt has to be cleaned up after every match or the carrier gets sticky. Just throwing out another option for you. Good luck and let us know what you end up with.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

Uberti has been a long time Supporter and Supplier for this game.

Uberti has a large supply of parts and service if ever needed.

 

Miroku  is building a nice looking rifle .

Not much of a support system yet .

 

Uberti and Miroku both make a nice Copy of the Original Winchester .

IMHO  there is Not much of a discussion here 

Uberti wins hands down .

 

PS. I dont know how everything got underlined ?

[Blackey Cole]

Imo uberti if you can't find an original 73 made in the us of a.  I tookme many years to find one that worked for me I looked at several over the years and finally bought one earlier this year in my caliber and condition for the price I could live with.

[Assassin]

I've been shooting my Miroku for 3-4 years. I welded up the firing pin safety, it is the weak point of the rifle. The loading gate broke and I called Winchester, got the part in a couple days. Parts are available, just not as many people handling them yet. I'm going to call them for spares, just to have them. I can run it as fast as my Uberti guns and it is a better long range gun than the Uberti's. 

[Rye Miles #13621]

45 minutes ago, Assassin said:

I've been shooting my Miroku for 3-4 years. I welded up the firing pin safety, it is the weak point of the rifle. The loading gate broke and I called Winchester, got the part in a couple days. Parts are available, just not as many people handling them yet. I'm going to call them for spares, just to have them. I can run it as fast as my Uberti guns and it is a better long range gun than the Uberti's. 

Good to know that Winchester is sending out the parts. I've been told you have to be a registered gunsmith to get 'em!!

[Russ T. Sites]

2 hours ago, Assassin said:

I've been shooting my Miroku for 3-4 years. I welded up the firing pin safety, it is the weak point of the rifle. The loading gate broke and I called Winchester, got the part in a couple days. Parts are available, just not as many people handling them yet. I'm going to call them for spares, just to have them. I can run it as fast as my Uberti guns and it is a better long range gun than the Uberti's. 

Can you share where you got your parts I'd like to get some spare springs 

[Assassin]

2 minutes ago, Russ T. Sites said:

Can you share where you got your parts I'd like to get some spare springs 

These are the numbers I have. For warranty issues 800-333-3288 that's in Utah, Winchester/Browning HQ. The parts and service in Missouri is 800-322-4626.

 

 

[Russ T. Sites]

1 hour ago, Assassin said:

These are the numbers I have. For warranty issues 800-333-3288 that's in Utah, Winchester/Browning HQ. The parts and service in Missouri is 800-322-4626.

 

 

Thanks for the info

[Bart Solo]

I don't know about anybody else, but I beat the heck out of a rifle.  No way am I going to run a gun regularly that is going to stay pretty. Hell I am lucky they remain in operation for a full 2 day match.  The Moriku's I have seen are just too darn pretty to shoot regularly. 

 

Of course, my goal is to live until all of my cowboy guns are totally worn out.  

 

Now if I was made of money I would shoot the Japanese Winchesters that had been specially tuned just for me, but I am not made of money.

 

Today I was at a match and was talking to my local gunsmith about minor repairs needed to my main match Uberti when we were approached by a new shooter who had his great grandfather's 92.  Except for a cracked stock and a little ding on the magazine tube it was in great shape and the gun's serial number indicated it was built in 1896.  The new shooter asked the smith if with a repair to the magazine tube if it would be good to shoot it in SASS.  The smith said yes it would work fine, but he strongly advised against it. The gun was just too valuable for our game.  

 

We all have to realize that our gear is expendable.  Any gun we use in SASS will break down eventually. I wouldn't have it any other way, but I sure wouldn't play the game with any gun I would be afraid to beat up or break.  

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

It is my understanding that the Uberti, although not identical, is much closer to the original 73 in its design than the Miroku, which was intentionally modified on some ways.  Something about the bolt being different somehow.   Someone will chime in with the difference, I am sure.

 

This matters to some, and not to others.   At least they didn't put a stupid safety on it like they did their 92's.   

 

 

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

21 hours ago, Bart Solo said:

I don't know about anybody else, but I beat the heck out of a rifle.  No way am I going to run a gun regularly that is going to stay pretty. Hell I am lucky they remain in operation for a full 2 day match.  The Moriku's I have seen are just too darn pretty to shoot regularly. 

 

Of course, my goal is to live until all of my cowboy guns are totally worn out.  

 

Now if I was made of money I would shoot the Japanese Winchesters that had been specially tuned just for me, but I am not made of money.

 

Today I was at a match and was talking to my local gunsmith about minor repairs needed to my main match Uberti when we were approached by a new shooter who had his great grandfather's 92.  Except for a cracked stock and a little ding on the magazine tube it was in great shape and the gun's serial number indicated it was built in 1896.  The new shooter asked the smith if with a repair to the magazine tube if it would be good to shoot it in SASS.  The smith said yes it would work fine, but he strongly advised against it. The gun was just too valuable for our game.  

 

We all have to realize that our gear is expendable.  Any gun we use in SASS will break down eventually. I wouldn't have it any other way, but I sure wouldn't play the game with any gun I would be afraid to beat up or break.  

So you will bang up a $1000 uberti with no worries, but would not do the same to a $1200 Winchester? Most ubertis I see have another $400+ short stroke in them, so at what point in this game is a gun to expensive to use? I shoot colts, yet I know folks that use rugers that they have about the same money in after the short stroke and half cock modifications. I think it's a case of to each their own when it comes to playing this game. 

[Ripsaw]

Rufus, we met at the Mattaponi Sundowners shoot yesterday. Loved the story about your Alias.  

 

You asked the same question of the pards on the posse and most of us shoot the 73,  but there were a couple Marlins and a Rossi or two as well.  

 

I would agree with most of the feedback you've received on this thread, get the Uberti as you'll have more fun working on it if that's what you want to do.  I opted for a Cody Matic (a Uberti from well known gunsmith, Cody Conagher.). Codyscowboyshop.com.  It'll be ready to go out of the box, and it's what many of us shoot.  

 

With the rainy weather, we didn't get a chance to try out the guns at the match yesterday. Talk to Striker about trying some of our guns at the next match before you make a decision. You are welcome to try my Cody Matic if you'd like.  (it's a .357/.38).  

 

Again, it was great to meet you and look forward to you joining in the fun when you get ready. 

[Rev. Rufus King, Esq.]

10 hours ago, Ripsaw said:

Rufus, we met at the Mattaponi Sundowners shoot yesterday. Loved the story about your Alias.  

 

You asked the same question of the pards on the posse and most of us shoot the 73,  but there were a couple Marlins and a Rossi or two as well.  

 

I would agree with most of the feedback you've received on this thread, get the Uberti as you'll have more fun working on it if that's what you want to do.  I opted for a Cody Matic (a Uberti from well known gunsmith, Cody Conagher.). Codyscowboyshop.com.  It'll be ready to go out of the box, and it's what many of us shoot.  

 

With the rainy weather, we didn't get a chance to try out the guns at the match yesterday. Talk to Striker about trying some of our guns at the next match before you make a decision. You are welcome to try my Cody Matic if you'd like.  (it's a .357/.38).  

 

Again, it was great to meet you and look forward to you joining in the fun when you get ready. 

Thanks.  I am actually leaning toward 44-40. Hand loading and load development is one of the areas I enjoy most about shooting, and I find the cartridge intriguing.  I will look forward to shooting with you soon.

[Blackey Cole]

Iyour wanting a cartridge that is plain  temperamental you got it besides the 38-40 that I shoot it will be temperamental in loading from what I heard. I loose one or two cases everytime I tweak my dies. But luckily that about once every five or six years it seems.  I load on a Dillon 550 I use locking ring on the dies and they stay on the tool head the powder measure may come off but even that good since it basically claps in a groove on the Dillon powder dies.  I use Lee four die sets mainly with a Dillon powder die and funnel instead of the Lee powder die with the Lee disc powder measure for most setups it better to swap the Dillon measure than use the Lee one.  I have at least one setup for each caliber I shoot and that goes one for 38 spec a second for 357 mag that way once the dies are adjusted they are set.  Iuse the same prices for 45 Colt and Scholdfield and 44 spec and mag.l lost parts and pieces before I was able to do that when I took it with me on a trip and was in abroll over and the box popped open, but with everything on the toolheads locked down if I have the toolheads odds are I got everything.

 

once the load is worked out the data is recorded and I just have to set the powder measure throw and pump them out.  If I'm loading for accuracy where each case is trimmed, each load is weighed and a trickle powder thing is used to bring the charge up to the exact charge then Bullets are culled by weight and diameter then I load those up on my rcbs press but I rarely to date do much of that konce I start getting better with my precision shooting I'll move away from the bulk ammo to my ammo once a load is worked up and tested.  I did that when I was settling on a load for cas I. Each caliber   I would test five round in one revolver and ten in the rifle once I found the revolver load no problems then it was to reloading mode pumping out a thousand at a sitting now itends to be kick out what I have clean brass to load, brass may be being cleaned while I'm loading for the next sittings use. 

 

I hope to have my loading room configured and organized this year so I know what I have. Now I know I have enough of this and that for now but I'll need this in the future but do I have everything I need to make it is a question that I'll need answering but in the future I hope to run a computer Inventory database that will do several thing let me know when I pull ammo out if I'm below a certain ammount and if we are talking ammo that I reload if they're enough components ts to reload the required inventory amount if its factory ammo it will let me know my current in stock level plus what I should have in my Dillon boarder shift bags if I enter the amount used so it will be tracking two numbers one that in the inventory system and another that is my working inventory that's been pulled out of the first one. I really like the board shift bags as the bag has two zippers ones for loaded ammo and the other zipper is for the empty brass.  Ideally and it works with the non cas ammo real wheel you shoot the brass gets put in its side of the bag with cas I have a couple brass bags for my cart and in cas the brass goes in there then ideally it would be put in the Dillon bag after the shoot but that rarely happens as I may wait two or three shoots the clean the brass but under the new system that will have to change plus once cleaned the number of usable brass will need to be added back into the system this will allow for lost brass at regular matches and lost brass matches then when my number for total brass for that caliber gets below a number I set then it goes and gives me a notification plus when I get ready to order I print out a shopping list and it tells me everything in a yellow status items that are just below the set amount then code red items are items that almost out black is at 50 percent of desired levels. This allow you to be able to prioritize you orders if needed. It will also send email or text when items hit each level.  The reason for this system is I'm shooting close to twenty to thirty different calibers or more. So if you shooting smokeless and bp loads then if you use a different load for cas long range you might have close to ten loads for shoe calibers if you shoot wbas also. Then for my modern gunvs I use at least two different loads for my. Ccw calibers one is my practice rounds the other is my arc self defense rounds.  If I was to start shooting other multi gun disiplines no telling how many 9 mm round loads I'll need one for the handgun one for the rifle then the practice rounds and the defense loads.  If a suppressor is used then they are sun but sonic and supper  sonic loads needed.  So the database will help track everything .

 

sorry to the op for the long semi unrelated data the went way past his inquiry.

[Bart Solo]

On 4/23/2017 at 7:57 PM, Redwood Kid said:

So you will bang up a $1000 uberti with no worries, but would not do the same to a $1200 Winchester? Most ubertis I see have another $400+ short stroke in them, so at what point in this game is a gun to expensive to use? I shoot colts, yet I know folks that use rugers that they have about the same money in after the short stroke and half cock modifications. I think it's a case of to each their own when it comes to playing this game. 

Read your comment and you are right. They are only a few hundred dollars more expenive. To each his own. If you have the extra money go for it.

 

I woud treat either as a tool to play our game..  I would shoot them as long as I could. Hopefully neither would be worth as much as I paid. So the question is what do I get for that extra money. Near as I can tell I get the Winchester name, a smoother action out of the box and a better stock.  The Winchester name on a Japanese gun is branding. The smoother action out of the box doesn't get you much if you have to pay for an action job either way, and in the hands of most cowboy shooters the nice stock isn't  going to stay nice.  So I still would go with the Uberti.