Another plate rack question - Junior shooters

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

If an adult has the option to shoot til down, whether a tombstone rack or a plate rack, then the same option should be afforded to the buckaroo. 

[Slick McClade]

7 hours ago, Straight Arrow Hombre said:

If an adult has the option to shoot til down, whether a tombstone rack or a plate rack, then the same option should be afforded to the buckaroo. 

100 % agree 

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Since Jr shooter does not have to get a plate rack to fall, after 5 shots (assuming 5 plates) Jr shooter should be allowed to shoot at largest target, ie either remaining plate(s) or dump target.

[Griff]

12 hours ago, Slick McClade said:

I see your point BUT the big thing is the rack in question was a Tomstone rack. Which as you know has a big tombstone with one behind the other and progressively gets smaller. So if the first Tomstone doesn't fall and the Buckaroo keeps engaging it for 5 rds total and it's still standing. According to you it's technically knocked down(and I agree and have all along). But the Buckaroo shooter wants to keep trying to knock said tombstones down and accordingly to the stage description he/she can do so. But According to you if the Buckaroo does so they will have 5 misses for the next 5 rds fired because the first target is "Technically down". 

In my opinion if the Buckaroo wants to keep trying to knock them down in the cowboy way of doing things then he/she had 10 rds to try. In the end if the tombstones are still standing then fine , they are not required to knock them down so it's not counted as a miss.

 

on the other hand if Buckaroo shooter 2 comes up and hits the 1st tombstone 5 times and it didn't fall and then dumps next pistol for 5rds on the stationary then I would call him clean also. I think both ways are fine "with in" the Buckaroo rules. Why should Buckaroo shooter one get penalized for 5 misses if they are wanting to knock down the tombstones as it was written?

I see both sides of this non winning battle here , LOL

I agree with this... except... if Buckaroo #1 hits falling plate #1 10 times, there are NO misses...  if you are so inclined, you can give him a "P" for failing to follow the stage instructions... again, assuming that a hit is the same as a knockdown for the Buckaroo, who after hitting the plate 5 times, should put the remaining rounds on the dump plate.  Follow the "Flow Chart".  If I were the TO, I would advise the Buckaroo that wanted to knock 'em down, that after a valiant attempt, put at least one shot on the dump plate to avoid the "P". 

 

Buckaroo #2 would be clean, regardless.

 

Allie Mo, the MD as the shooter should not, (and IMO even... cannot, in order to avoid the merest hint of impropriety), make the call that the plate rack is defective.  Someone else makes that call in that particular instance.  The specific circumstances need to be considered... i.e., have other shooters failed to knock over that particular plate, where was shot placement in those and his instance.  When was the rack last calibrated?   

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

3 minutes ago, Griff said:

Allie Mo, the MD as the shooter should not, (and IMO even... cannot, in order to avoid the merest hint of impropriety), make the call that the plate rack is defective.  Someone else makes that call in that particular instance.  The specific circumstances need to be considered... i.e., have other shooters failed to knock over that particular plate, where was shot placement in those and his instance.  When was the rack last calibrated?   

I don't know when it was last calibrated. I agreed with the call at the time without thinking of the following.

 

The problem, as I see it now, is that anyone who engaged that target and it did not fall with the first hit, didn't get a fair shake. I do not remember if we were the first posse or not.

 

I think, if he was the first shooter (he wasn't) on the first posse (don't remember), the call was fair. If not, everyone who had to reengage the target should have got a reshoot or the stage should have been tossed. This thought didn't come to me at the time or, I'd probably remember the details.

[Griff]

3 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

I don't know when it was last calibrated. I agreed with the call at the time without thinking of the following.

 

The problem, as I see it now, is that anyone who engaged that target and it did not fall with the first hit, didn't get a fair shake. I do not remember if we were the first posse or not.

 

I think, if he was the first shooter (he wasn't) on the first posse (don't remember), the call was fair. If not, everyone who had to reengage the target should have got a reshoot or the stage should have been tossed. This thought didn't come to me at the time or, I'd probably remember the details.

Aye, the totality of the circumstances must be considered.  That was really the point I was trying to make.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Slick, are you are saying is that the stage instructions are over ridding the rules for Buckaroos and Buckarettes?

 

If so, would it be okay to over ride the rules for other categories such as Duelist?

[Slick McClade]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

I agree with this... except... if Buckaroo #1 hits falling plate #1 10 times, there are NO misses...  if you are so inclined, you can give him a "P" for failing to follow the stage instructions... again, assuming that a hit is the same as a knockdown for the Buckaroo, who after hitting the plate 5 times, should put the remaining rounds on the dump plate.  Follow the "Flow Chart".  If I were the TO, I would advise the Buckaroo that wanted to knock 'em down, that after a valiant attempt, put at least one shot on the dump plate to avoid the "P". 

 

Buckaroo #2 would be clean, regardless.

 

Allie Mo, the MD as the shooter should not, (and IMO even... cannot, in order to avoid the merest hint of impropriety), make the call that the plate rack is defective.  Someone else makes that call in that particular instance.  The specific circumstances need to be considered... i.e., have other shooters failed to knock over that particular plate, where was shot placement in those and his instance.  When was the rack last calibrated?   

Griff , 

You didn't follow the post correctly, I was responding to chance and his statement. He stated that the Buckaroo would received misses because of the "hit/down" targets. Please read it again and you'll understand. Also read the original stage instructions , it doesn't say you must hit the stationary. With the wording if he hit the knock down with 10 rds trying to knock them down you couldn't give him a "P" for not hitting the stationary.

 

Stage instructions: With pistols, Shoot plates until all are down. Then place any remaining rounds on a dump plate. Plates remaining standing and misses on dump plate are scored as misses.

 

32 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

Slick, are you are saying is that the stage instructions are over ridding the rules for Buckaroos and Buckarettes?

 

If so, would it be okay to over ride the rules for other categories such as Duelist?

Marauder,

Thats not even close to what I'm saying. The one Problem with people is they don't read fully they skim read. Buckaroo rules say they don't have to knock down plate racks but engage/hit only. If the Buckaroo shooter chooses to try to knock them down and uses all 10 rds trying and they are still standing then it's a NO call/ clean because of the Buckaroo rule. On the other hand if a Buckaroo shooter hits the tombstone plate 5 times and it doesn't fall and the shooter chooses to engage the dump plate with the next 5rfs then it's still clean because of the Buckaroo rules.

Read the original post and the stage instructions on page one. With the way they are written both of the above stated Buckaroo shooters would be ok.

NOTHING was said about over riding rules of any kind for anyone. 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Thanks for the clarification, Slick.

 

I agree with what you say.  It is a choice for the Buckaroo/ette.

[Griff]

Aye Slick, I think I followed that... but no way could you give a Buckaroo, (or anyone else for that matter), that hit a pistol target with every shot, any misses.  And for the Buckaroo, whether they were KDs or not.  We had a similar target setup this weekend... no Buckaroo/ettes tho', and in the OP, I wouldn't have given a Buckaroo/ette a "P" using all ten shots on the fallin' plates...  my "if you're so inclined" was intended for the few hard-assed spotters I've run across.  Shoulda been more clear...   I'd still advise 'em to make at least one attempt on the dump plate.  But, yes, their choice.

 

Edited to add:  The reasoning behind the attempt on the dump at the end, is that they're not going to be buckaroo/ettes forever, and beginning to make the attempts on these type of target arrays will stand them in good stead as they progress to Jr. and on.

[Slick McClade]

Griff,

I agree and wouldn't call a miss either for the Buckaroo/ette shooter.  That's the point I was trying to make with my friend Last Chance. If you read his response he would have awarded the shooter 5 misses, go back and read it then you'll understand my post.

 

Cheers,

Slick

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

FWIW - I agree with Slick.

("LIKE" function doesn't work for me) 

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

shooting plates til down wudn't applly to budkeroos and such,,, just as sg knockdowns,,,   and all the stage discriptioins say to shoot until down...no big deal either way

[Yusta B.]

1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

FWIW - I agree with Slick.

("LIKE" function doesn't work for me) 

 

Thank you. Then both ways are acceptable. (5 hits on any visible target then remaining rounds on dump plate - or - at least 5 hits on what ever plates are visible.)  I would advise her to score 5 hits on any standing target available, then dump any remaining shots on the dump target. At the shoot I asked this question before the shooter started to avoid any controversy. The shooter was my grand daughter & as it turned out she cleaned the plate rack in 5 shots & put 5 on the dump target for a clean stage. I asked the question here because she is 11 & will undoubtedly encounter similar situations in the next 2 years & I wanted clarification on what direction to advise her to take.

Thanks to all for their comments.