Reshoots for improper coaching of the RO?

[Kirk James]

The RO has the responsibility, along with everyone else, to keep a safe match.  If the RO tells you to stop during a stage and you do not, it is a stage dq. This is an excellent rule to protect the shooter and everyone else. It also lets the shooter know who is in charge during a stage.   I would like to know your opinion on granting a reshoot if the RO improperly coaches you during a stage.  Sometimes the RO just messes up and improperly coaches a shooter.  This tread is not meant to be a, “what’s the call”, on a specific event that happened.  How do you feel about granting reshoots for improper coaching of the RO?  I only have a community reputation of four so be nice.

[Assassin]

RO's are not created equal. Some can coach a shooter along and help them, others took the RO2 class and think they can run the timer, and they will never be able to do a competent job. If it were left up to me, the shooter would start the clock and the clock would be placed at the last shooting position in order to pick up the last shot. An RO could follow the shooter for safety concerns. There would be no coaching from RO's or spectators. That's the only way to make things even for all shooters. Back to your question, yes the shooter should get a reshoot if the RO improperly coaches them.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Yes reshoots are allowed for improper coaching or interference.....Good Luck

Proper coaching is not considered RO interference and, therefore, will never be grounds for a reshoot. Improper coaching that either impedes the shooters progress or results in a procedural penalty may be grounds for a reshoot.

 

JefroRelax-Enjoy

[Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L]

8 minutes ago, Jefro, SASS#69420 said:

Yes reshoots are allowed for improper coaching or interference.....Good Luck

Proper coaching is not considered RO interference and, therefore, will never be grounds for a reshoot. Improper coaching that either impedes the shooters progress or results in a procedural penalty may be grounds for a reshoot.

 

JefroRelax-Enjoy

+1 RO1 course page 20

[Cat Brules]

I've been improperly "coached" by the TO/RO several times over the years at monthly matches for a variety of reasons.  I've been offered re-shoots every time.  I recall that I may have taken the re-shoot once(?).  My response has always been to thank them for watching out, for admitting their error, etc.  And, I've usually refused the reshoot in the interest of keeping the posse moving.

[Sagebrush Burns, SASS # 14226]

If I'm on the timer and give the shooter bad information they will get offered a reshoot.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

43 minutes ago, Kirk James said:

The RO has the responsibility, along with everyone else, to keep a safe match.  If the RO tells you to stop during a stage and you do not, it is a stage dq.

...

 

"Willful failure to comply with a "cease fire" or "Stop" command given by, and while under the positive control of, the CRO/TO." is a

MATCH DQ

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I caught that also, PWB.   Thanks for posting your reply so I didn't have to.

 

..........Widder

 

[Snakebite]

I concur with allowing a reshoot when the T.O. gives the shooter improper coaching. I've done it.... at a State Championship I thought the shooter had one more round in the rifle and yelled "One more", causing him to return only to find that I was wrong. I certainly offered him a reshoot, and he took it. He messed up the reshoot and it cost him the Overall match win. I felt really bad about that, still do, but my coaching call was meant to save him... I made a mistake in my shot count. One of the most difficult situations is when a shooter is suppose to move to a location, like the Door, and shoot his pistol/s and stops at the wrong position, like window.... the T.O. yells "door" and the shooter moves with a cocked gun. The T.O. would not have given that coaching instruction if he/she were aware that the gun had been cocked (things happen fast), often the gun has not been cocked when the statement was made but the action of cocking is often followed through. The instruction itself was not incorrect. However, the shooter is responsible for knowing that he/she can not move with a cocked gun, so a SDQ is issued. That is a tough situation, but it is not the fault of the T.O. 

 

Snakebite

[Warden Callaway]

11 hours ago, Cat Brules, SASS #14086 said:

I've been improperly "coached" by the TO/RO several times over the years at monthly matches for a variety of reasons.  I've been offered re-shoots every time.  I recall that I may have taken the re-shoot once(?).  My response has always been to thank them for watching out, for admitting their error, etc.  And, I've usually refused the reshoot in the interest of keeping the posse moving.

 

Me too.  I don't ever remember taking a reshoot.  The second or two it cost me in time didn't keep me from the winners title. 

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

SASS is about safety and fun.  I have offered a few reshoots due to my brain f@rts and some have been taken, some not.  

 

I've been on the other side and "hey, everyone is human," comes to mind.  Usually don't take it as Karma remembers stuff like that.

 

Since I'll never win the keys to the new Cadillac or even a valve stem cover I'm just happy to be playing 'cowboys and Indians' like I did when I was 11 years old.

 

cr

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

If I screwup when I have the timer I always offer a reshoot. Happened yesterday shooter kind of fumbled the shotgun load,I said restart since it was the first gun shot, he hesitated but kept going! I offered a reshoot since he hesitated, he took the time and said don't worry about it! Of course shooting  18 sec. Stage while shooting fcgunfighter played a little in his decision.

Rafe

[Cowboy Junky]

As I continue to grow as a TO I also try to continually improve. Early on I would use words like stop IF the shooter was doing something that might earn them a "P" or was not flowing correct stage procedure.....that was bad on my part.

 

Now I reserve STOP mostly for safety issues but I will use it to grab the shooters attention in some cases where it is warranted. I also try to use better directions for "steering" commands or instructions that aren't safety issues so they understand they are "advice" more than demands....and may be adhered to or dismissed. 

 

When I do have to say STOP I say it in a way I think people know it's not advice it's a command.

 

 

[Sixgun Seamus]

It's a fine line when you TO. Some people welcome and want coached while with others, you don't say a word to them from the LT to the ULT. When you know the people you shoot with, it's admittedly easier. I might just give a loud "NO" if they are about to shoot the wrong target or just call out the target number if I see they are confused. Yes, I have given a command that caused them to slow or stop when unnecessary for which I will offer a reshoot. I will only yell STOP when the situation calls for it. Too many trained TO's are reluctant to do the timer because of fear of an errant call. We are all human and try to do our best, but we all are capable of mistakes. I have made a bad call or missed something and feel terrible about it. At a recent big match I failed to notice that the shooter didn't have shotgun shells for the stage. He is a good friend and competitor in my category. I felt terrible that it cost him 20 seconds, but ultimately it is the shooters responsibility to come to the line prepared. For you fellow Scouters out there all I can say is "Do Your Best". It's all that can be expected.

 

[Frontier Lone Rider]

When I shoot at a new club, I always tell the TO that I need all the help they can give me. Coach all you want. if I screw up, it is my fault.

 

As I approach 70, I realize I will never be 25 again.  I keep trying to sign-up for the Fun Category, but I haven't found it yet.

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

18 hours ago, Sagebrush Burns, SASS # 14226 said:

If I'm on the timer and give the shooter bad information they will get offered a reshoot.

Yep me too !

[Shamrock Sadie]

As I learned a few years ago from an ROI (black badge) and as it states in the handbook, spotters are also considered ROs. So if a spotter provides improper coaching to the shooter, then since they are considered ROs, it may be grounds for a reshoot. I say may, because of course you have to assess each situation. Wrong commands from the peanut gallery does not constitute a reshoot, however.

This situation occurred this past weekend at a shoot. A spotter gave improper coaching when the rifle lever closed when it was put down and the shooter had already ejected the round. It slowed down the shooter because they had to reach down and open the lever before shooting the shotgun. After debate, the shooter just just decided not to get the reshoot.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Question to PWB:

 

A couple years back, while I was in the middle of my firing scenarios, someone LOUDLY yelled out behind me a persons name, which sounded like "Cease Fire".  Actually, they yelled it out twice.  

I hesitated each time in my shooting string of which the TO commanded me to 'KEEP GOING".

 

Would a situation like this warrant a shooter a 'reshoot'?

 

Thanks

 

EDIT:  although the 'Peanut Gallery's  "Improper Coaching" isn't grounds for a reshoot, the shooter doesn't always know who might be hollering behind him/her.

 

 

..........Widder

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

IMO...That would be the T/O's call, especially if he also heard the shouting & could be convinced that you heard "CEASE FIRE!"

which could conceivably have been called in an emergency situation that the T/O was not in a position to see.

Otherwise, the T/O should be close enough so that the shooter is aware of the source of any coaching.

 

We had a couple of a range groundskeeper's kids pop up from behind a back berm in the middle of an active stage engagement...a general cease fire was called by everyone on the posse who saw them.

Shooter got a reshoot after the varmints were handed over to their keeper...what happened to them after that, no one is saying.

[Shamrock Sadie]

52 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Only the TIMER OPERATOR's "improper coaching" is grounds for a reshoot...SPOTTERS are included in the "peanut gallery" as far as improper coaching and misdirection are concerned.

REF: RO1 ppt version p.17/slide #22

 

Looks like we need a clarification in the RO1 and RO2; an ROI told me about this ruling 2 yrs ago and I have seen/heard others allowing reshoots for improper coaching by "ROs."

 

REF: RO2 (v. 21.5), pg13: "As outlined in detail within the SASS Range Operations Basic Safety Course materials, each course of fire has specific duties filled by members of each shooting group (posse) in order to facilitate a match. These members are referred to as the assigned Range Officers. While every participant is a safety officer, the assigned Range Officers are the ONLY persons who may judge a shooter, whether on or away from the firing line. These judging responsibilities range from watching for misses and hits, correct target order engagement, appropriate completion of stage instructions, safety violations, legal or illegal equipment, appropriate ammunition, appropriate dress, and any category specific requirements, such as to adequately produced smoke by the blackpowder category participants."

 

REF: RO (v. 21.6), pgs. 6-10: All match positions below are Range Officers. The Timer Operator is the Chief Range Officer during shooting stage operations. 

• Match Director
• Range Master
• Posse Marshal
• Deputy
• Timer Operator
• Expediter or XP Officer
• Score Keeper
• Spotters
• Loading/Unloading Table Officer

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

The clarification posted was in regard to COACHING the shooter during stage engagement; and whose "improper coaching" or "impeding" (other than physically) qualifies for a reshoot...otherwise, according to the (now obsolete v.21.6) RO1, there would be 7 (9 if the MD & RM are on the posse) who could potentially interfere with the shooter resulting in a reshoot situation.

[Snakebite]

1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

The clarification posted was in regard to COACHING the shooter during stage engagement; and whose "improper coaching" or "impeding" (other than physically) qualifies for a reshoot...otherwise, according to the (now obsolete v.21.6) RO1, there would be 7 (9 if the MD & RM are on the posse) who could potentially interfere with the shooter resulting in a reshoot situation.

+1

[Nawlins Kid SASS #36107]

9 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

The clarification posted was in regard to COACHING the shooter during stage engagement; and whose "improper coaching" or "impeding" (other than physically) qualifies for a reshoot...otherwise, according to the (now obsolete v.21.6) RO1, there would be 7 (9 if the MD & RM are on the posse) who could potentially interfere with the shooter resulting in a reshoot situation.

+2

 

[Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator]

21 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Only the TIMER OPERATOR's "improper coaching" is grounds for a reshoot...SPOTTERS are included in the "peanut gallery" as far as improper coaching and misdirection are concerned.

REF: RO1 ppt version p.17/slide #22

 

 

+1

[Nawlins Kid SASS #36107]

On 4/9/2017 at 8:08 PM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Only the TIMER OPERATOR's "improper coaching" is grounds for a reshoot...SPOTTERS are included in the "peanut gallery" as far as improper coaching and misdirection are concerned.

REF: RO1 ppt version p.17/slide #22

13 hours ago, Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator said:

 

 

+1

Last year while I was the T/O at a major match a shooter stopped  in the middle of a stage because someone in the peanut gallery yelled out the wrong info. I then gave him the proper instructions. He protested and got a re-shoot, I can't prove if it was his buddy in the peanut gallery who yelled but his re-shoot stage was faster. I like this new terminology and hopefully it stays.

 

Nawlins

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

In the past wording changes that had the intent to change/clarify rules were highlighted in order to make it easier for everyone to keep current. While I like the concept of an easier read, easier understood, combined manual, the one-fell-swoop approach to changing RO1 apparently has left some of us to attempt to figure out just what has changed.

 

The idea that only improper coaching by the TO is grounds for a reshoot is certainly easier to decipher for Everyday Joe Shooter and certainly easier to determine by the TO who should know what was said, but meanwhile back at the ranch. . .there's going to be disagreements.

 

I wonder if there are other changes that have been made that have yet to come to light.

 

Beuller, Beuller, anyone? 

[Griff]

11 minutes ago, Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 said:

Beuller, Beuller, anyone? 

It's Beuller's day off... leave him alone!

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

Out of curiosity,  what constitutes improper coaching? For example, shooter (not me I swear, no really) gets a jam in his rifle and struggles to clear it. Jam is clear and then shooter gets that deer in headlights look of "what was the next target?". TO says left target, which is incorrect, and shooter finishes the string with a "P".  I, er I mean shooter deserved and received the P, correctly in my opinion because shooter is responsible to understand the target order. But was this improper coaching?

[Yusta B.]

Yes, that is improper coaching. TO was incorrect with target instruction.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

I learned something in a WBAS class that would be useful here, if one could remember to do it. When the gun jams, the shooter can yell out the next target. Then, after the jam is cleared, more people, including the shooter might remember what target is next.

[J. M. BROWN, SASS # 27309]

On 4/11/2017 at 4:12 PM, Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 said:

In the past wording changes that had the intent to change/clarify rules were highlighted in order to make it easier for everyone to keep current. While I like the concept of an easier read, easier understood, combined manual, the one-fell-swoop approach to changing RO1 apparently has left some of us to attempt to figure out just what has changed.

 

The idea that only improper coaching by the TO is grounds for a reshoot is certainly easier to decipher for Everyday Joe Shooter and certainly easier to determine by the TO who should know what was said, but meanwhile back at the ranch. . .there's going to be disagreements.

 

I wonder if there are other changes that have been made that have yet to come to light.

 

Beuller, Beuller, anyone? 

 

+1