Black Powder Questions

[Max Payne]

Ophelia wants to move to black powder. Currently working on making 12 ga shotshells. Got a good recipe for Goex from another cowboy, then found I can't get it. I was in Bass Pro & tried to buy some. He says Federal law prevents it being sold for "re-enactment &/or Cowboy Action". Anyway, just starting, so I may as well get something easier to get my hands on.

 

I can get Triple 7 & Blackthorn pretty easily here. I understand Pyrodex is frowned upon, so no need to pursue that one.

 

What should I know? And, if anybody has a recipe for Triple 7 or Blackthorn, please PM me.

 

I was going to use 1 oz of shot with white 1 1/8 oz Winchester Wads with the recipe I have.

[Tyrel Cody]

5 minutes ago, Max Payne said:

Ophelia wants to move to black powder. Currently working on making 12 ga shotshells. Got a good recipe for Goex from another cowboy, then found I can't get it. I was in Bass Pro & tried to buy some. He says Federal law prevents it being sold for "re-enactment &/or Cowboy Action". Anyway, just starting, so I may as well get something easier to get my hands on

 

I'm calling Bull Hockey!!

 

None of his business what you are using it for anyway.

 

Order it from here https://powderinc.com/

 

or

 

here

 

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3501

 

the more you order the cheaper it gets.

[Johnny Dollar]

Wait..... the guy at bass pro said cowboy action shooters can't buy it?  I've never heard of it and would think he was very mistaken.  

Why would that even be a reason?  What's left? Hunting?   And why even offer that information then.  

Tell that to the thousands of reenactors and cowboy shooters.   

[Too Tall Bob]

Look for APP (American Pioneer Powder) if you can find it. It's probably the most popular substitute out there. Works in rifle/pistol and shotgun. 3f for .38 spec and smaller, 2F for larger caliber and shotgun. 

[Johnny Dollar]

1 minute ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

I'm calling Bull Hockey!!

 

None of his business what you are using it for anyway.

 

Order it from here https://powderinc.com/

 

or

 

here

 

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3501

 

the more you order the cheaper it gets.

 

Or just go back and say it's to fertilize your garden.    

[Goody, SASS #26190]

What ever you choose just remember that black powder and subs are loaded on a volume equivilent basis. I would saty away from 777 in SG, it's pretty stout for the amount you need to load. If they said to load xx grains of 2f Goex, then the other brand(s) would be loaded to the same volume, not weight. Also remember that you need to match all 3 components in the load, powder, wad and shot, to get the correct column heighth for the crimp to be good. And don't forget to put a little compression on the wad/powder. I load on a MEC 600 JR and put 35-40 pounds of pressure on the load. You'll get a much more consistant burn. Don't know what machine you are using, but I load with a Clay Buster red wad and 1 ounce of shot, get a perfect heighth in Remington green or gold hulls.

[Warden Callaway]

Blackhorn 209 is considered a duplex powder and, as I've been told, not allowed for SASS.  

 

Are you looking for one powder to load shotshell and cartridge?   I like BlackMZ as a substitute.   I have been told it's simulator to APP.   I find BlackMZ to be more powerful than real black - volume for volume - and use about 2/3s as much. 

 

We have Grafs just up the road that has 20 choices of real black powder of 4 different brands.  You can order from them but hasmat and shipping adds up.  They have subs too but subs can always be found local.  

 

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId

 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

47 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

What ever you choose just remember that black powder and subs are loaded on a volume equivilent basis. I would saty away from 777 in SG, it's pretty stout for the amount you need to load. If they said to load xx grains of 2f Goex, then the other brand(s) would be loaded to the same volume, not weight. Also remember that you need to match all 3 components in the load, powder, wad and shot, to get the correct column heighth for the crimp to be good. And don't forget to put a little compression on the wad/powder. I load on a MEC 600 JR and put 35-40 pounds of pressure on the load. You'll get a much more consistant burn. Don't know what machine you are using, but I load with a Clay Buster red wad and 1 ounce of shot, get a perfect heighth in Remington green or gold hulls.

I don't load Triple Seven for my wife.  It has more recoil than she would tolerate.  However I do keep a box of SG shells loaded with Triple Seven in my cart as knockdown loads for out-of-calibration SG targets.  My wife loves APP.  It has mild recoil and a neutral odor.  Caution: both APP and Pyrodex are hydroscopic.  Rounds can go bad in humid weather.  I store my wife's APP rounds in a dry box with a dessicant until the day of use (and we live in the desert).  I will take SG shells loaded with muzzle MZ to our regional at the end of this month.  It is not very hydroscopic, does not cause rust and does not require special storage.  At Winter Range my fellow Soot Lords admired the flames for my shotgun when shooting Muzzle MZ.

 

Bring a purple feather to your wife's first BP match and give it to her for her hat at the end of the match.  It will identify her as a lady BP shooter.

[Tennessee Trapper Tom]

Why would Blackthorn not be allowed in CAS. Just curious. Never used it but never heard that either.

[Jackalope]

Here's the quote from SASS Shooter's Handbook...

 

 

Any combination of smokeless and blackpowder (so called duplex loads) is specifically prohibited in ANY category. (e.g. Blackhorn 209)

[Major BS Walker Regulator]

What Jackalope said, Blackhorn 209 is illegal to use for CAS.

My go to powder is also Black MZ as Mr. Callaway has stated but I will shoot APP and Goex also. Been known to send a few smokeless rounds down range on occasion too but don't let that secret get out.

 

PS. This topic is on the wrong site

[Ivery Keys #11974]

And of all things, I like Pyrodex, been shooting it for three or four decades, I was not aware it is frowned upon...

 

Regards,

 

Ivery

[Flatbush]

Same here. Pyrodex isn't frowned upon. It will work just fine in your shotgun shells.

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

Loaded pyrodex in shotgun for years! Cheap and works fine only switched to black mz when I found it for $9 a pound. Still have 2lbs. Then back to pyrodex.

Rafe

[Lunarphase]

The Bass Pro Shop guy is outta line, and WRONG. Tell him you want the Black powder for muzzle loading if he insists on why you are using it. BUT it is none of his business. I know they keep it in the back and have to go back there to get it for you. They will sometimes limit how much they will sell you, that is their prerogative.

It can be used to make some nasty things that make BIG bangs, so if you are looking sketchy I see why they shut you down. 

 

Speak with the manager if you get anything but a "yes sir, how much do you want."

I would make an official complaint to the management about that sales person.

[Eyesa Horg]

2 hours ago, Lunarphase said:

The Bass Pro Shop guy is outta line, and WRONG. Tell him you want the Black powder for muzzle loading if he insists on why you are using it. BUT it is none of his business. I know they keep it in the back and have to go back there to get it for you. They will sometimes limit how much they will sell you, that is their prerogative.

It can be used to make some nasty things that make BIG bangs, so if you are looking sketchy I see why they shut you down. 

 

Speak with the manager if you get anything but a "yes sir, how much do you want."

I would make an official complaint to the management about that sales person.

+1

[J-BAR #18287]

Powder Valley has Pyrodex for a bit under $15 a pound.  Graf and Sons has their brand of real BP (relabeled Schuetzen) for pennies under $16 a pound.  Federal law limits storage of real black powder to 50 lbs or less.  My understanding is that Pyrodex, as a substitute, is not limited to 50 lbs and can be stored and shipped like smokeless powder.  I like both, and use both.

 

You are going to use up black powder or a substitute faster than you will smokeless powder. Smokeless loads are going to be in the 3 to 5 grains per shot ballpark whereas black powder loads will use up 15 to 20 grains for each rifle and pistol shot, and 40 + grains per shotshell.  I know 50 pounds of powder sounds like a lot, and it needs to be stored properly, but if both of you are shooting black powder loads and you are going to more than one match a month, you can go through a lot of black powder quickly.

 

So I recommend buying a bunch and thereby minimize the hazmat fee per pound.  You could split a case of 25 pounds with other black powder shooters in your area. If you decide you don't want to use it up yourself, I bet there are other cowboys in your area that would be happy to buy it from you.

 

 

 

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Should mention a plus of Pyrodex, it is less dense. Remember I said you load the same volume as BP? When I load BP I get about 110 rounds to the pound container. Using the same wad, equipment and powder bushing will yield about 140 rounds with Pyrodex.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Order all you want from Powder Inc and have it delivered to your house.

Just like you can for primers and smokeless powder..........

I would call the manager of that Bass Pro and let him know that their personal training has HUGE gaps.......

OLG

[Tennessee Trapper Tom]

Thanks, it's a duplex. I just never encountered the question. I use pyrodex, triple seven and now have black mz. Course I'm not able to shoot right now. 

[Trigger Mike]

another solution is I bought several boxes of GOEX brand manufactured before their plant blew up 12 gauge shotgun shells that i bought through Powder inc.  I have several boxes all set to go and i used them some back when i shot regularly.  I don't shoot now that I'm 2 1/2 hours away from the nearest match.  I'm thinking I will sell the for $26.  a box

[Big Marsh SASS # 24391 Life]

Be sure to to use 'paper and not plastic shot cups. Plastic melts and leaves a mess in the barrel.

But it is a lot of fun to shoot The Holy Black!!! And to smell that odiferous sulferic blast of smoke!!!!

[Sedalia Dave]

American Pioneer Powder often runs specials just for SASS shooters.

 

Here was the latest one.  Give them a call. They have great customer service. Their number is 888-423-2310

 

If you decide to use APP let me know and I'll PM you a good low recoil load.

 

 

[Rex M Rugers #6621]

Do not be spooked by those who warn against regular plastic shot-cups. They do leave a residue in the barrels , but it cleans up easy enough. Or maybe I have just been too lucky or ignorant for about 15 years of using them in my BP loads.

Welcome to the Dark Side.

Keep 'em smokin' , Rex

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

1 hour ago, Rex M Rugers #6621 said:

Do not be spooked by those who warn against regular plastic shot-cups. They do leave a residue in the barrels , but it cleans up easy enough. Or maybe I have just been too lucky or ignorant for about 15 years of using them in my BP loads.

Welcome to the Dark Side.

Keep 'em smokin' , Rex

 

 

+1 on the above - using a plastic wad will usually  tighten your pattern up one degree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

[Captain Clark]

1 hour ago, Rex M Rugers #6621 said:

Do not be spooked by those who warn against regular plastic shot-cups. They do leave a residue in the barrels , but it cleans up easy enough. Or maybe I have just been too lucky or ignorant for about 15 years of using them in my BP loads.

Welcome to the Dark Side.

Keep 'em smokin' , Rex

+1  its not hard to clean up after plastic wads, use Windex with vinegar! I learned it from Four Bucks!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Never heard of Pyrodex being "frowned upon"...it is specifically listed in the SHB as LEGAL:

 

Quote

 

Throughout this manual, blackpowder means blackpowder, or a blackpowder substitute such as Pyrodex, 777, APP, or comparable propellants intended for muzzle loading firearms. 

Propellants containing nitrocellulose are prohibited as blackpowder substitutes.   

Any combination of smokeless and blackpowder (so called duplex loads) is specifically prohibited in ANY category. (e.g. Blackhorn 209) 

 

SHB p.12

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Howdy Max, try to hook up with some other BP shooter, go in on a bulk order and save shipping and hazmat fees. Ask if someone has a few lbs. they'll sell you till time to order. IMHO you should go out of your way to find some real BP for her, nothing like the sweet smell and flames from real BP. Yes subs will work, but you'll never get the feel for BP till you try the real stuff. If you need it I have a good 7/8oz reduced load for shotshell using the pink wad. Good Luck

 

JefroRelax-Enjoy

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

Unlike the subs which aren't considered to be explosives just flamables, for BASS Pro or anyone else to sell real black powder they have to have a specific license and proper storage.

 

From the ATF site.

May I sell black powder without a license?

 

Does BASS PRO Have this license?

I'm betting that salesman just made that up.

[Amarillo Rattler]

11 hours ago, Big Marsh SASS # 24391 Life said:

Be sure to to use 'paper and not plastic shot cups. Plastic melts and leaves a mess in the barrel.

But it is a lot of fun to shoot The Holy Black!!! And to smell that odiferous sulferic blast of smoke!!!!

The melted plastic (aka Black Snot) is easily removed with a spray and 10 min soak of PAM (equal portions of hydrogen peroxide, 91% isopropyl alcohol, and Murphy's furniture oil). Push the mess out using a Remington 12ga Squeegee over a lined trash can. Then clean like other BP barrels.

 

I use plastic wads for light practice and heavy match loads. Fiber wads for regular match loads.

 

Amarillo Rattler

[Joe West]

  My shotgun shells have been pyrodex all these years and I use plastic wads. You swab your shotgun out after each stage anyway if you want the hulls to fall out clean so it's just not a problem. I use pyrodex in my c&bs or cartridges if I'm out of 777. I don't use real bp as traveling by motorcycle I feel safer with the subs in the saddlebag and if I'm running low often a walmart or gun store will have pyrodex or 777. 

[Krazy Kajun]

Max, I shoot 777 and have what you need...just call me when you have time and I'll tell you what I use. 

 

Kajun

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

Send you a PM.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

I Use Goex 3f  in all my guns for CAS .... I also use plastic wads, try and find 16 ga  felt wads up here in Canada .... And if found the more than double the total cost per round ...

Plastic wads clean up real easy at the end of each day .. I use a square load ,,, The same volume of both shot and powder ...

I use the same powder in my Revolvers and Rifles using drop-tubed compressed loads ... I get plenty of buck an boom and a big cloud of Smoke ...

 

And yes powder does disappear quickly ,,,, but it is SO MUCH FUN !!!

And I never worry about knock-downs ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Blackey Cole]

Go read all the articles capt Baylor has written over the years he had a new bp shooter guide on his website at one time plus more detailed articles from that.