Gunsmiths who can fit a .44-40 cylinder to a .44 RM Vaquero?

[Christopher Carson]

 

Have thought for years I would prefer to load .44 WCFs instead of .44 Rem Mag from my Ruger Bisley Vaqueros.  (Not "New" Vaqueros.)  Something to better complement my .44 WCF Win '73 and the .44-40 Schofield.

 

Thinking about it for years just never has turned into action... couldn't find a round tuit, I guess...

 

But I'd imagine an early question would be about who could do the work, and that assumes being able to acquire cylinder blanks, and then do the line-boring, fitting, timing, etc....

 

So who would ya'll recommend for further discussion?

 

-Chris

 

[Sedalia Dave]

They don't come up for sale too often but Ruger made Vaqueros in 44-40.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Alan Harton in Houston, Joe Perkins in Tucson, Run-n-Iron in Nebraska,  They all do lots of SAA and Ruger work.  Might have cylinders that can be fitted to your guns.

 

Good luck, GJ

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Best Ruger SA 'smith there is.......

http://www.clementscustomguns.com/home.html

 

Call'em and get the details.

OLG

[Trailrider #896]

Not sure if you simply want a .44-40 Vaquero or a convertible. Yes, Ruger produced .44-40 Old Model Vaqueros for awhile. In the beginning they had trouble getting the dimensions of the chambers right, and had the throats overly tight (.425"). When I bought my first one, I couldn't even chamber factory ammo in some of the chambers. I pestered Ruger to do something about this for about a year, and "Duke" Venturino did in print. Ruger finally had me send my gun back and they fixed the chambers, but left the throats at the .425" diameter.  As it turns out, using hardcast bullets .430" and Winchester brass (thinner walls) will drive tacks at 25 yds.  I had the original gun fitted with a spare Super Blackhawk cylinder in .44 Magnum. Ruger back sent the gun with the .44-40 cylinder. I had a terrific gunsmith in Denver, Milt Morrison, adjust the fit so both cylinders could be swapped out making it a convertible. Then SASS went to two-gun shooting, and I had acquired a second Vaquero in .44 Magnum. I lucked into a .44-40 cylinder that Milt had laying around, and had him fit that to the .44 Magnum gun, so I had/have the second convertible. All I have to do is grab the matching caliber rifle to whatever cylinder I put in (depending on what ammo I have loaded).

 

Unfortunately, Milt Morrison left Denver and I've lost track of him.  He did gunsmithing work for Skeeter Skelton, et al, and was a real craftsman.

 

If you can't locate any .44-40 cylinders, you might try to find .357 cylinders and have them rechambered for .44-40.  A good 'smith should be able to time the .44 Magnum and .44-40 cylinders and fit them up for convertibles.  Best of luck with the project!

[Long Gulch, SASS #53035]

Rugercyl.com

Bottom of the page.

Don't know if this is still a going concern.

Sure wish these had been available when I had my .44 Vaqueros done.

I used the cylinder blanks from this same company. Still happy I had the work done.

 

LG

[Outrider, SASS #72622]

Says they are drop in cylinders.

http://brcrifles.com/manufacture.htm

 

[Trailrider #896]

18 hours ago, Outrider, SASS #72622 said:

Says they are drop in cylinders.

http://brcrifles.com/manufacture.htm

 

I would still think and recommend a professional gunsmith verify the timing and lockup, especially if you want to have the old .44 Magnum cylinder timed right for interchangeable use. Note: If you have two guns, I would NOT expect the cylinders to be interchangeable between the two guns. (You might get lucky that way, but it would be pure chance. You might want to have the cylinders stamped as to cartridge and matching serial number on the rear of the cylinder to avoid confusion.) 

[W. D. Pickett]

I think there was some discussion about the .427 .44-40 vs the .429 barrel.  You might want to investigate.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

32 minutes ago, W. D. Pickett said:

I think there was some discussion about the .427 .44-40 vs the .429 barrel.  You might want to investigate.

Almost none of the modern .44-40 guns use a .427 groove diameter barrel.  I don't know of even ONE.  The existing .429 groove diameter .44 mag barrels will be JUST FINE for shooting .44-40.  Ruger has always used .429 barrels in their Vaqueros.

 

This is not a problem for the poster and his chambering plans   Time to let it go.  The gun industry let it go about, oh, 30 years ago.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited April 1, 2017 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Christopher Carson]

Thanks, all, I appreciate the pointers.  That BCR link looks especially interesting, although I too would think timing might need some extra tweaking afterwards.

 

Trailrider, I do remember reading the name Milt Morrison... but haven't seen references to him in years, I think.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Crow and Linebaugh are doing this kind of work -- although 44-40  might be a bit odd for Linebaugh  -- but I thought useful to gather together info about as many possibilities as I could before starting in earnest.

 

Cheers, -Chris

 

[Joe West]

  My two cents worth;

The problem isn't the barrel dimension it's the cylinders. All the older 44-40 vaqueros I worked on required the cylinder throats to be opened. All had .429 barrels with cylinder throats running .425 more or less. By the time the bullet came out it didn't know which way it was headed. Many 45 colt ones had to adjusted too, they just weren't as bad. The old vaquero 44-40 cylinder Ruger made will fit most 44 mag old vaqueros with minor fitting, occasionally you'll have to make a compromise on cylinder gap or hand height to have them both work out. Any gunsmith that regularly takes care of such fitting on single actions will have the tooling to fit that factory cylinder and rethroat it, if you can locate one. I have one I did for myself and I'm quite happy with it. That gun is my favorite for splitting cards. So least expensive option, find a Ruger 44-40 cylinder. California destroys a lot of guns, the non frame parts often find their way to ebay. Numrich Arms puts stuff on ebay too as well as their site. Looking is free but a lot of other people are looking too. Except for pre made cylinders, this project won't be that quick if from a blank no matter who does it so might as well look a bit. If your gun and a 44-40 Ruger cylinder came into the shop I work out of you'd have it back in a week or two tops, my time factor is more determined by my health and motorcycle trips than anything else. The BRC site product did look good and having the fit verified would be easy enough. If you buy one I'd be interested in your evaluation.

  As for making the cylinder from a blank fit to your gun,  +1 on Clements, the cost is going to be a lot more as you'll see. 

 The easier route is what many do and use a 357 cylinder to re manufacture into the chambering you want. Either of those options will require a manufacturers license and a lot more machine set ups. And the wait time may be substantial as why do just one of these? Advantage to Clements there again as it's a regular service they offer. Due to extra cost of the license and tooling I believe fewer smiths will do it. Not me for one.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Joe West

[Trailrider #896]

Just a quick comment on the .425" cylinder throats in Ruger .44-40 OM Vaquero cylinders.  That was the case for the S/N #55-XXXXX and some of the #56-XXXXX guns. Later, just before they discontinued .44-40's, they did open the throats up to .429".  HOWEVER...I found that if I used .430" hard-cast commercial bullets (BHN 17-25) my accuracy was excellent (1-5/8" five-round groups at 25 yds using a two-hand hold with a rest for my forearms)!  So, I left the throats alone, and they are still that way today!  I had no wish to take the barrels of any of my guns, but, as a (ustawas) materials and rocket engineer, my theory is that with bullets of that hardness, the internal compressive stress on the bullet metal doesn't have time to dissipate as the bullet transits the throats. When the bullet enters the barrel forcing cone, the residual internal stresses cause the bullet to re-expand.  And, I don't get much, if any leading near the barrel forcing cone.  Others may want to have the throats opened up, but I'll leave mine alone.  Oh, BTW, an original Colt's Frontier Six Shooter (SAA in .44-40) had a barrel .427" groove diameter and throats .4245" ! Even with a 4-3/4" barrel, that gun is even more accurate than my Rugers, although when I shoot it, I use .427" bullets, again hard-cast and with smokeless powder!  Just sayin'...

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

On 3/31/2017 at 5:44 PM, Outrider, SASS #72622 said:

Says they are drop in cylinders.

http://brcrifles.com/manufacture.htm

 

Looks like these fit NMV or 50th anniversary Blackhawks and not OMV like the OP has. 

[Christopher Carson]

Hmmm... might be right.  Says "Ruger Vaquero or New Model Blackhawk."  I'll have to ask... 

 

As to accuracy, I also shoot a .44-40 Schofield, and it has a .430 barrel.  Didn't have any issues getting it to shoot well, although I did go to softer bullets.

 

-Chris

 

[Christopher Carson]

A follow-up, for folks sittin' around the fire...

 

I couldn't figure it out from their website, so I just talked with Al Story at Borchardt Rifle (Works/Company/Corp... and Borchardt is spelled a few different ways on their website, too).  The short version is that they make drop-in cylinders for whatever frame size we've got.  The page about .44-40 drop-in cylinders says Vaquero and New Model Blackhawks, but means NEW Vaquero. 

 

The caliber-non-specific page about cylinders for Super Blackhawk frames also applies to original Vaquero frames, and they could do .44-40s for those too.  This is the page that says "requires gunsmith fitting."  I asked about fitting to a customer's frame; they don't do that. They adjust the timing using frames they've got there on hand... hence the "drop-in" feature... and Al said that would apply to their cylinders for the larger-frame Rugers too.

 

BUT...

 

They have no stock, and they're in the process of changing over their drilling machinery... and Midway is apparently keeping them busy with .22 cylinders (??)... so it'll be at least a couple months before BCR can begin delivering something like a .44-40 cylinder.

 

-Chris

 

 

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

On 4/8/2017 at 9:40 AM, Joe West said:

  My two cents worth;

The problem isn't the barrel dimension it's the cylinders. All the older 44-40 vaqueros I worked on required the cylinder throats to be opened. All had .429 barrels with cylinder throats running .425 more or less. By the time the bullet came out it didn't know which way it was headed. Many 45 colt ones had to adjusted too, they just weren't as bad. The old vaquero 44-40 cylinder Ruger made will fit most 44 mag old vaqueros with minor fitting, occasionally you'll have to make a compromise on cylinder gap or hand height to have them both work out. Any gunsmith that regularly takes care of such fitting on single actions will have the tooling to fit that factory cylinder and rethroat it, if you can locate one. I have one I did for myself and I'm quite happy with it. That gun is my favorite for splitting cards. So least expensive option, find a Ruger 44-40 cylinder. California destroys a lot of guns, the non frame parts often find their way to ebay. Numrich Arms puts stuff on ebay too as well as their site. Looking is free but a lot of other people are looking too. Except for pre made cylinders, this project won't be that quick if from a blank no matter who does it so might as well look a bit. If your gun and a 44-40 Ruger cylinder came into the shop I work out of you'd have it back in a week or two tops, my time factor is more determined by my health and motorcycle trips than anything else. The BRC site product did look good and having the fit verified would be easy enough. If you buy one I'd be interested in your evaluation.

  As for making the cylinder from a blank fit to your gun,  +1 on Clements, the cost is going to be a lot more as you'll see. 

 The easier route is what many do and use a 357 cylinder to re manufacture into the chambering you want. Either of those options will require a manufacturers license and a lot more machine set ups. And the wait time may be substantial as why do just one of these? Advantage to Clements there again as it's a regular service they offer. Due to extra cost of the license and tooling I believe fewer smiths will do it. Not me for one.

Joe west set up a pair of my 44-40 that had tight throats. Very accurate. Joe does good work.

[Christopher Carson]

 

Hmmm... Thanks, Dan, hadn't really thought about trolling for cylinders.  I can start doing that, too...

 

And in the meantime, Joe, I'm still reading through David's website (pretty impressive).  Looks like his "normal" conversion also includes a new barrel, and I wasn't thinking to go that far.  Seems like just getting the cylinder throats right is about all I'd need to hit minute of 16" pie plate.

 

-Chris

 

[Christopher Carson]

Following up on this for the benefit of the campfire...

 

I talked with Al Story a few days ago...  He told me he's starting up a new manufacturing run of .44-40 cylinders, and taking orders now.  At least for the .44 Rem Mag Vaquero (old model) cylinders; I didn't ask about the .44 Special New Model Blackhawk version.

 

His websites are:

http://www.brcrifles.com/

http://www.rugercyl.com/

 

-Chris

 

 

[Three Foot Johnson]

I couldn't figure out what a "RM Vaquero" was... I was guessing 'riginal model.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

3 hours ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said:

I couldn't figure out what a "RM Vaquero" was... I was guessing 'riginal model.

 

.44 RM Vaquero   ---- I took that to be an abbreviation for .44 Remington Magnum Vaquero.   Full name of the cartridge.

 

And, of course, those Ruger .44 mag guns have always used the SuperBlackhawk, original Vaquero size frame.

 

Good luck, GJ