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Adivce on using a 'horse' on stages?


Duncan Disorderly

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20 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

 

I think encouraging the cowboys on your posse to be friendly and go talk to the guests and offer to let them shoot cowboy guns is more likely to do what you want than fancy props.

  I respectfully have to dissagree.  Look at the plain and simple facts. The largest growth in sports for those under 40 have lots of movement. 3 gun, idpa, airsoft, crossfit competitions, tough mudder events. All are booming.  Athletic competitions are what's popular right now. Standing still and shooting is boring. You will not attract or keep many young shooters that way. I love the friendships that i have found in sass, but i don't Go to clubs that set up mostly stand and deliver stages. I enjoy shooting 13 sec stages as much as the next guy but its just not that intriguing to do over and over.    Thats one of the big issues. You cant have both.  You can't make a stage that anyone 9 to 90 can shoot and expect it to challenge and interest everybody.

  To the op. Set up the stage as best you can to accommodate most. You'll never please everybody.  If i was close I'd come shoot it.

  

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When I first started  cowboy shooting I kinda liked the horse thing. I used in stages I wrote in many stages at places I have lived since I started shooting.

 

That being said, 14 years later along with 6 knee surgeries, a replaced hip, metal plates in one foot, an amputated toe on the other foot, and a fixed shoulder has placed a tough damper on those sort of stages for myself. Don't get me incorrect here, I can still move and enjoy movement in stages. Its just the swinging the leg over obstacles and twisting on the hip has made those sort of stages for me to be much harder to be competitive in. As I look at the age of my 'buds' on the range and their range of motion on the range, mounting pretend horses just don't have the appeal to me as they did in the past.  

 

Your clubs mileage may vary from the clubs I feel privileged to participate with. No matter what you do, it will work for some and be torture to others. We are in the entertainment business and want ALL of our 'buds' to come back for each and every match.

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Shot a Regional once that you had to sit on a moving horse to shoot all your guns.  The mechanism broke before our posse shot the stage.  So we had to wait almost 2 hours while they fixed the horse (we were the last posse of the day).  While we waited the wind came up from zero to about 30 mph with higher gusts. As a result the tall popper targets to be shot with your pistol would not fall because the wind was straight up range (and that included 200 g 45 rounds).  Is that fair for all the shooters of one posse to  be so penalized.

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Anytime you put a horse that has to be sat on, especially a moving horse, into a match you are going to have problems.  Some people have problems getting on and off the horse, some have balance problems, some will just flat refuse to get on the horse.  Shooters generally need help getting on and off the horse and staging their guns, especially if more than one type of gun is being shot off the horse.  Horses cause back-ups and if you are running lots of shooters on multiple posses this can ruin a match.  Horses are fun at the club level with a few people but are a total disaster for a shoot of any size.

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Hmm..cowboy sure is different than ALL other sports out there.

Bad knees? They don't change the rules of soccer so you can play.
Bad back? then you best not take up weightlifting or bowling.
Can't run anymore? then track and field is out I guess.

Some shooting sports will make some accomodations for physical ability, but but the body is unable to compete...you can't compete.

At some point age catches up with all of us - and those 'issues' can cause safety issues for the shooters and others at and behind the firing line.

Bad knees, missing toes, a limp, etc - the risk of falling with a loaded gun is gonna be pretty high I would think.

Yeah, I know, my opinions on this don't fit the majority's thoughts.

But there are other shooting sports out there - benchrest, silhouette (even with lever guns), fast draw (with single actions), bullseye, NRA pistol - if you can't physically do SASS.

I hate to see the 'game' of 'playing cowboy' turning into a stand and deliver 2-1-2 over and over as fast as possible, with no need to move, think, aim or the like.

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Personally, I'd shoot off a horse, make sure it's 15 or 16 hands tall and I have to stick my foot in the stirrup to get on, no steps. I will shoot from the top of a stagecoach, or under a wagon, jump off the gallows, stand on an old bed, shoot from a moving mine cart, I've done all these things. I'm lucky, I'm in pretty good shape for a 57 year old kid. Others will agree, some will disagree. When I gain a few pounds I quit eating like a pig and go outside and do something, you can't "sit" off a meal, you have to work it off. If people really want to do something they will get in the best shape they can and do it. Some folks attribute all their aches and pains to old age, it's called "life", it's not for everyone. Put on your match the way you want, if they complain and don't come back you'll know why. When there are few volunteers that want to put a match together do what you want, if they complain tell them to put on the match.

 

If I really wanted to put a Top Cowboy match on, we'd be swinging from ropes, rolling wagon wheels, carrying saddles, splitting firewood, dragging 150 pound dummies, etc.

However, I like to get more than 2-3 shooters.

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2 hours ago, Duncan Disorderly said:

Hmm..cowboy sure is different than ALL other sports out there.

Bad knees? They don't change the rules of soccer so you can play.
Bad back? then you best not take up weightlifting or bowling.
Can't run anymore? then track and field is out I guess.

Some shooting sports will make some accomodations for physical ability, but but the body is unable to compete...you can't compete.

At some point age catches up with all of us - and those 'issues' can cause safety issues for the shooters and others at and behind the firing line.

Bad knees, missing toes, a limp, etc - the risk of falling with a loaded gun is gonna be pretty high I would think.

Yeah, I know, my opinions on this don't fit the majority's thoughts.

But there are other shooting sports out there - benchrest, silhouette (even with lever guns), fast draw (with single actions), bullseye, NRA pistol - if you can't physically do SASS.

I hate to see the 'game' of 'playing cowboy' turning into a stand and deliver 2-1-2 over and over as fast as possible, with no need to move, think, aim or the like.

What a ridiculous and arrogant response. I was with you up until this post. No one is saying that we shouldn't shoot from a horse because one or two shooters have limited abilities to do so. It's the vast majority of sass shooters that are limited in doing so. Have you looked around at the average age and ability of most sass shooters? You say that there are other games out there for those shooters to play, but there are also other more athletic games out there you can play. That thought ever cross your mind? But instead, what you want is to change the game to fit you rather than playing the game that was here long before you were. How about this, you go and create your own version of cowboy shooting sport that has all the stuff you want and see how many come and play. I'm still in good enough shape to do it, so I'll come play, but I will also go and shoot at the sass events and not expect them to play a different game.

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3 hours ago, Duncan Disorderly said:

Hmm..cowboy sure is different than ALL other sports out there.

Bad knees? They don't change the rules of soccer so you can play.
Bad back? then you best not take up weightlifting or bowling.
Can't run anymore? then track and field is out I guess.

Some shooting sports will make some accomodations for physical ability, but but the body is unable to compete...you can't compete.

At some point age catches up with all of us - and those 'issues' can cause safety issues for the shooters and others at and behind the firing line.

Bad knees, missing toes, a limp, etc - the risk of falling with a loaded gun is gonna be pretty high I would think.

Yeah, I know, my opinions on this don't fit the majority's thoughts.

But there are other shooting sports out there - benchrest, silhouette (even with lever guns), fast draw (with single actions), bullseye, NRA pistol - if you can't physically do SASS.

I hate to see the 'game' of 'playing cowboy' turning into a stand and deliver 2-1-2 over and over as fast as possible, with no need to move, think, aim or the like.

 

So, what's next? Are you going to abase the folks with failing eyesight? How about the folks who are diabetic, bad shoulders, hearing problems, feet problems or any other physical problems that might prevent them from getting on (or off)  your horse?

 

I sure as HELL am glad that I don't shoot with people with your attitude. By the way, I don't have a problem with the horse you rode in on.:ph34r:

 

CS

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The current demographics would not support your idea's. Here is an example...Winter Range had 749 total shooters. 364 were in age based categories that you had to be 60+. That does not even take into account older shooters shooting in costume based categories, black powder categories, or the younger age based categories. The older age based categories are the largest categories by far and there is a much bigger push to add new age based categories not reduce them. This trend is one that has been going on for years now and these numbers bear out at all the larger matches.

 

As a "younger" shooter I do not think adding in the types of things you are suggesting will increase the appeal to younger individuals to SASS. You are more likely to push shooters away with the attitude you seem to have based on a few of your posts. This is one of the reasons I really don't like the wire. We shot together at the PA state match and you are really a nice guy. This is a game that is much more inclusive and welcoming than many of the older shooting sports. We need to grow it, not make it exclusive.

 

The reason 3 gun is so attractive to the younger crowd is everyone thinks they are going to be a high speed low drag operator....it is more sexy.

 

 

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Duncan - Maybe y'all didn't notice the largest categories at the US Championship, by far,

were

1) Silver Sr.

2) Elder Statesman

3) Senior

4) Sr. Duelist

 

Sass is made up of a whole bunch of us older fellas. A lot with one malady or another. You don't want to shoot with us old farts - then don't !  :ph34r:

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4 hours ago, Duncan Disorderly said:

Hmm..cowboy sure is different than ALL other sports out there.

Bad knees? They don't change the rules of soccer so you can play.
Bad back? then you best not take up weightlifting or bowling.
Can't run anymore? then track and field is out I guess.

Some shooting sports will make some accomodations for physical ability, but but the body is unable to compete...you can't compete.

At some point age catches up with all of us - and those 'issues' can cause safety issues for the shooters and others at and behind the firing line.

Bad knees, missing toes, a limp, etc - the risk of falling with a loaded gun is gonna be pretty high I would think.

Yeah, I know, my opinions on this don't fit the majority's thoughts.

But there are other shooting sports out there - benchrest, silhouette (even with lever guns), fast draw (with single actions), bullseye, NRA pistol - if you can't physically do SASS.

I hate to see the 'game' of 'playing cowboy' turning into a stand and deliver 2-1-2 over and over as fast as possible, with no need to move, think, aim or the like.

 

Oh man, the one and only time since the software upgrade that I've lost a comment and returned to find it missing, instead of intact with my comments; it has to be this thread where I wrote a "BOOK" about these comments and it is lost. Maybe He is telling me something.

 

I see that this post has disturbed others too. I'm glad, because I'd hate to think this attitude was rampant among my Cowboy Family.

 

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2 hours ago, Redwood Kid said:

What a ridiculous and arrogant response. I was with you up until this post. .... How about this, you go and create your own version of cowboy shooting sport that has all the stuff you want and see how many come and play. 

Well said.

 

To the OP -- just keep pounding on that square peg. Mind you, it'll never fit the round hole, but it's been entertaining to watch.  ;)

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21 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

 

Oh man, the one and only time since the software upgrade that I've lost a comment and returned to find it missing, instead of intact with my comments; it has to be this thread where I wrote a "BOOK" about these comments and it is lost. Maybe He is telling me something.

 

I see that this post has disturbed others too. I'm glad, because I'd hate to think this attitude was rampant among my Cowboy Family.

 

Ruh-roh - Duncan in T-R-O-U-B-L-E NOW!    :o  ;)

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I go to shoot IDPA - and have a bad knee, am 80 years old, have improper gear - they do not let me shoot.
They're NOT changing the course of fire, making targets bigger, closer, etc so that I can play the game or be more competitive. Not no way, not no how.

And they are THRIVING.

 

3Gun/USPSA/Bianchi cup - same thing - the rules is the rules - you can't have them changed because you can't move, see, hold a pistol, etc.Not gonna happen. And those are growing sports.

Cowboy Action Shooting is different how?

We make it easier to play the game - and guess what? The old people still don't win, do they? What are the ages of the top shots - nationally and in your area?

I don't see the top shots asking for bigger closer targets, complaining they can't hit them, can't run, etc.  Do you see this?

What I DO see is the top shots improving their skills to meet the game's requirements..they're not asking the game to be changed to meet their abilities.

Talking to a few folks there is some debate as to whether the 'standard' 10/10/4 stand and deliver is something unique to this region or not. Some say other areas of the country are more 'traditional' - often using EOT as a comparison to what the 'standard' is or should be, and even then I ask two people and get two completely different asnwers.

 

Our last shoot (sunday) had folks from ga, ny, va, oh and pa. Feedback was great on target sizes, distances, stages, etc. Even with a horse in play on one stage. The only negative feedback was one posse had issues with 'too many different sequences on one stage'..gee, you had to think did ya? A few P's from that - my posse had no P's, no complaints. Could be we shot it last of 6 stages they shot it third..we were 'warmed up' by then.LOL

I had a stage with 6 or 7 shotgun targets, pistol knockdowns, a 35 yard rifle target (which everyone hit BTW). We had clean shooters too. And all ages shot successfully.

I just don't want to see the game 'dumbed down' so it becomes the Senior Action Shooting Society.

If you can't move and shoot there are ways to keep shooting - http://www.wasusa.org/shooting.htm
 

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1 hour ago, Sgt. Chesty SASS # 73317 said:

 We shot together at the PA state match and you are really a nice guy. This is a game that is much more inclusive and welcoming than many of the older shooting sports. We need to grow it, not make it exclusive.

 

The reason 3 gun is so attractive to the younger crowd is everyone thinks they are going to be a high speed low drag operator....it is more sexy.

 

 

Well..one issue is we've never shot together AFAIK - never been to the pa state match. I am a really nice guy though!

I've talked to other MDs and they've tried the big close stand and deliver and after a while it's boring, it's not " playing cowboy " anymore - isn;t that sort of at the heard of this sport? Go play cowboy and shoot and have a good time?
 

the 3gunners are VERY gear focused, all else is very secondary. Competition second. Social last, it seems.

I get that cowboy is social first, more so than other shooting sports - and that is part of what drew me in - and after a few years of shooting here and there, yes, there is some appeal to close big targets and no movement so you get a fast time. But it also gets boring. When the only difference between stages is the sequence you shoot the targets, or you start with rifle on one and shotgun on the next..where'd the 'cowboy' part go? Costumes only?

Next match I'm gonna keep it interesting as always - fun, different, unique. Perhaps, even, OMG, challenging.

Maybe I'm inspired by what I see in the other, growing, sports, that attract younger people. Maybe if 60% of the shooters were under 40 instead of over 60 we'd attract more younger shooters...go ask 25 year olds if they want to hang with the elder statesman crowd and I bet not. Like attracts like.

We have shooters under 35 so they're out there. When you see what the 3GN folks spend on gear, well, cowboy isn't out of the financial reach of the younger folks.

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2 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

So, what's next? Are you going to abase the folks with failing eyesight? How about the folks who are diabetic, bad shoulders, hearing problems, feet problems or any other physical problems that might prevent them from getting on (or off)  your horse?

 

I sure as HELL am glad that I don't shoot with people with your attitude. By the way, I don't have a problem with the horse you rode in on.:ph34r:

 

CS


I've been shooting for years in a PPC league (google it) - 25 and 50 yards with a pistol at a black B29 target. There has been talk of an orange dot in the center, or allowing optics - we too are aging.
But no - the game is the game - practice more!

top shot over the past 3 years have been a 60 year old, 36 year old, 62 year old and the 4th best is 67. We have a dozen shooters under 40..only two in the top 10. Those that, um, PRACTICE.

We've asked people to stop shooting when their ability, um, inability, to get up and down has diminished to the pont they're endangering others ( i watched a guy using his revolver as a cane to get up...barrel face down onto concrete...)

Sure, we could change the rules, but how is that fair to everyone else that can do it, signed up for it the way it was, enjoy it the way it is, have trained to shoot?

And better yet - WHY do you shoot SASS?

The social/people aspect? Then what do you care about the targets, horses or such?
Quickest time? Then you're probably practicing, buying good gear, maybe taking range lessons..and you're gonna be quick regardless of the stages. the top local shot is that way - 127 seconds for 6 stages..second and third shots were 191, 193 seconds. Nobody is gonna take overall win here, even if the game is changed to the lowest common denominator.

So then why not make it interesting, perhaps challenging, fun and funny at times?
Isn't part of the reason we have age based categories it to even out the competition, so the 82 year old isn't competing with the 28 year old, head to head?

So the 82 year old can have the option of not getting on the horse - his choice -  it's called 'spirit of the game' penalty, right?

I made it a time bonus to shoot from the horse - now you have to think about it..is it faster to shoot from behind the horse, or get on /off the horse and get a 3 second bonus?
Same for long rifle shots.
And the 25 yard shotgun target (which I missed/failed to knock over..with 4 rounds).

thinking in the future of throwing things..throwing knives, tomahawk, lasso or even a horseshoe. Could be the start, or a bonus if you get the ringer.

Started a stage with 2 shotgun shells in hand..set them down, shoot rifle, pick them back up and do shotgun. Something different anyone can do. FUN too.

Last year we shot playing cards. I'd love to shoot a hat off a head in some way. Or play with some tannerite. Even, OMG, moving targets (i hear there was at EOT).

Every match, every stage? no, of course not.

I have some ideas for other, innovative, ideas.

As for shooting from a horse, have you heard of this? http://www.cmsaevents.com/home/

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Somebody find him a western 3-gun club - maybe he'll go away ..........

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3 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

How deep do you plan on digging this hole?


So..the mentality is...big targets, 24x24 (or bigger), min distance (or closer). No movement.

So set up 10 targets (3 pistol, 4 shotgun, 3 rifle) and shoot 5 or 6 stages right there, the only difference will be what gun you start with, the line, and the order in which you engage the targets.

Anything else - farther, smaller, or any movement is to be discouraged.

If you don't have 50% clean shooters and folks shooting 25 second stages, then as MD you made it too hard for them.

As I've said, we have some 1/2 inch AR500 sheets, 4x8 foot in size...just stand and dump you guns into them as fast as possible.

and in about 3 matches nobody will come anymore - what's the point of it? Where's the fun, challenge and what's keeping their interest?

Because if that's not the typical match today, more and more are headed that way.

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Duncan,

 

Like Larson implied, stop digging. This is not soccer, track, weightlifting, bowling, IDPA, USPA...

 

It is SASS. We have a unique niche in  shooting sports and we are proud of it.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS Yusta, W3G is similar to SASS in accommodation. Try it, you'll like it.

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1 hour ago, Duncan Disorderly said:

Talking to a few folks there is some debate as to whether the 'standard' 10/10/4 stand and deliver is something unique to this region or not. Some say other areas of the country are more 'traditional' - often using EOT as a comparison to what the 'standard' is or should be, and even then I ask two people and get two completely different asnwers.
 

 

I suggest you travel to some matches outside of your area, what you are thinking about and describing is not what EOT is....I appreciate the idea of innovating, but you may want to see what other clubs and matches are doing that works....this is about entertainment....

 

And I do have a little experience with helping build some of the largest matches in the world....so this is not just conjecture. 

 

1 hour ago, Duncan Disorderly said:

Well..one issue is we've never shot together AFAIK - never been to the pa state match. I am a really nice guy though!

 

I guess I was mistaken, I hope you come this year...

 

1 hour ago, Duncan Disorderly said:

Maybe I'm inspired by what I see in the other, growing, sports, that attract younger people. Maybe if 60% of the shooters were under 40 instead of over 60 we'd attract more younger shooters...go ask 25 year olds if they want to hang with the elder statesman crowd and I bet not. Like attracts like.

We have shooters under 35 so they're out there. When you see what the 3GN folks spend on gear, well, cowboy isn't out of the financial reach of the younger folks.

 

I wouldn't want to shoot with 25 year olds that did not appreciate and respect the elder statesman that started this game....

 

All the younger shooters I know (including the best in this sport) like the old guys too....

 

I wish you luck in growing your club.....

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I guess I need to get out more......   I think I have only shot about 3-4 "stand and deliver stages" in a years time since I started this sport.

 

 I've shot big and close...small and far...I have shot off a horse many times.   Some you would just sit and shoot all guns, others you would start on horse and climb off.   It didnt bother me, but I have seen it effect others.   I shoot at one club that has different scenarios from one pistol to the other and a different order on the rifle.   Sometimes I get it right, sometimes I dont.  Doesnt bother me.......but I have seen it really bother others.  As far as age of top shooters......seems to be a lot of "top shooters" in our region this are 55+.   Several 60+.    Im glad to see younger shooters come into the sport and glad to see older shooters come into the sport.

 

Whats my opinion worth......Nothing.    You set it up and I will shoot it.    Though I may not shoot it again.  Im skipping a match this year that I have been making ever since I started shooting.....simply because I dont like some of the set ups and tired of not really enjoying the match

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28 minutes ago, Sgt. Chesty SASS # 73317 said:

 

I suggest you travel to some matches outside of your area, what you are thinking about and describing is not what EOT is....I appreciate the idea of innovating, but you may want to see what other clubs and matches are doing that works....this is about entertainment....

OK - I get that. So what IS entertainment then?

Some people only watch comedies, other like only dramas - but MOST people watch and are entertained by BOTH.

If every shot had the same plot, same characters, same set, then why would anyone watch?

Currently the most popular and talked about shows are the ones that are the least predictable!

So a stage with movement, reloading on the clock, start by holding something other than a gun at port arms - ENTERTAINMENT.

Shooting through a window, opening a door, carrying a bag of money from position to position - is this not entertaining to SOMEONE?

Ever shot a playing card? it's FUN. EVERYONE put their card they shot in their hat band. FUN. ENTERTAINING!!
 

28 minutes ago, Sgt. Chesty SASS # 73317 said:

 

And I do have a little experience with helping build some of the largest matches in the world....so this is not just conjecture. 

 

 

I guess I was mistaken, I hope you come this year...
 

I, unlike most, have a job - well, a job and 2 businesses I own. And kids. and pets and property to care for.
I can't take 3 or 4 days off for matches.
 

28 minutes ago, Sgt. Chesty SASS # 73317 said:

 

 

I wouldn't want to shoot with 25 year olds that did not appreciate and respect the elder statesman that started this game....

 

All the younger shooters I know (including the best in this sport) like the old guys too....

 

I wish you luck in growing your club.....

I don't see many mixed age groups 'hanging out' - be that 4 year olds, teenagers, retirees, etc.

When was the last time you want to a night club and danced to hip hop music?
The local bars with that kind of music - full of young people.
the quiet bars, old people.

When the folks at the gun club stand around and jaw before/after shoots you'll find them self-segregating by age.

I see it at sportsman's banquets also.

A 20something shows up and everyone is 60+ they've got little in common with them, feel out of place, don't hang out a lot.

A cowboy shooter here that went to a three gun match told me the same thing - he had his cowboy cart and shotgun belt, didn't wear the 'cool tactical clothing' everyone else had..nobody talked to him.  He didn't fit in.

As for people from other areas - had shooters from 5 states here last match.

And at some clubs that I hear folks say 'too far, too small" often draws a large crowd...so what people SAY and what they DO are often not the same thing. As I'm sure you've noticed in many areas of life over the years.

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1 hour ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

 

 

PS Yusta, W3G is similar to SASS in accommodation. Try it, you'll like it.

I would love to - just don't have enough motor to move that much.  :D:D

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8 minutes ago, Smokey Shayne said:

I guess I need to get out more......   I think I have only shot about 3-4 "stand and deliver stages" in a years time since I started this sport.

 

 I've shot big and close...small and far...I have shot off a horse many times.   Some you would just sit and shoot all guns, others you would start on horse and climb off.   It didnt bother me, but I have seen it effect others.   I shoot at one club that has different scenarios from one pistol to the other and a different order on the rifle.   Sometimes I get it right, sometimes I dont.  Doesnt bother me.......but I have seen it really bother others.  As far as age of top shooters......seems to be a lot of "top shooters" in our region this are 55+.   Several 60+.    Im glad to see younger shooters come into the sport and glad to see older shooters come into the sport.

 

Whats my opinion worth......Nothing.    You set it up and I will shoot it.    Though I may not shoot it again.  Im skipping a match this year that I have been making ever since I started shooting.....simply because I dont like some of the set ups and tired of not really enjoying the match


This is the mindset I'm hearing from many shooters - the challenge is, what makes a match 'enjoyable'?

Varies by person to a large degree.

Our club has covered shooting positions - so you're in the shade, there are chairs everywhere, dry grass covered ranges, decent parking, a slight hill to the ranges from parking (8-10 foot drop). So the COMFORT of the shooters is there, the convenience too. Bays are not crowded.

I would like it better if we had a dedicated area, or the range could be shut down so there's not an AR on the next bay over..but alas, with 1000 members that belong to the parent club you can't close it to everyone else..and there's a trap league that shoots here sunday mornings.

We dropped food this year...some shooters wanted to shoot and go home and not spend an hour plus sitting around waiting for results. We do have free coffee and water. again, a comfort and convenience thing.

I ask at every match - for feedback, ideas, suggestions, for anyone to design a stage.

We shot through windows at a match last year...at clay pidgeons two stages (out of 36), cards for one.

it's interesting to see what screws with folks...progressive sweep left to right, fine. right to left? P city like nothing else I've seen.
Shoot over a fence rail? no issue. Over a  board on the ground or table? fine. Move up to the pistol targets and engage teh rifle targets with your pistols..somehow standing over a target bothered many. Hmm..?

Like setting down and then picking up 2 shot gun shells...simple, yet somehow more fun than you'd think. You can't just throw them down like a prop rope or rubber knife.

Now would i do that at every stage? no. Gotta mix it up.

Gonna play with balloons at one match, bowling pins...you want entertainment? This is FUN - takes me back to when I was a kid with a 22 rifle.

 

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4 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

I would love to - just don't have enough motor to move that much.  :D:D


Until 2 weeks ago the only 3 gun i'd seen was on TV and I've seen three variations -one was head to head, lots of steel, little movement. One was some iron man deal - scurrying under barbed wire, through pipes, up ladders..wow. The other was similar to IDPA but using 3 guns.

That's what they do here - BUT it's in small bays, nothing more than 30 or 40 yards. LOTS more shooting than we do - think 60 to 70 rounds PER STAGE, or more. YOu shoot till you hit and are satisfied with your hits. go blast away!  the local match says, 4 stages, 125 pistol, 125 rifle and 100 shotgun needed.

and on a rainy cold muddy day they pulled 40 shooter at $25 per. Not a comfortable range, packed parking, no shelter, porta potties only.

Not much movement, less than our local IDPA matches usually have.

From reading online forums, some 3GN shoots have targets 100, 200 yards..some to 600 now and then. Yowsa.

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and yes, we ARE competing with these other shooting sports.

I shoot ppc, cmp and sass and IDPA a few times a year. I'm planning to shoot some trap this week and 3 gun soon. and maybe even NRA highpower or pistol this year if work schedule permits.

the top cowboy shooter shoots USPSA and 3gun.
Our TG shoots IDPA at times and PPC.

I'll inquire more about folks' shooting habits and histories. an MD from across the state told me he's found about 1/2 the shooters that do SASS never shot anything before. I know we have a few like that too.

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Duncan, you should try listening to these guys.  They are some of the best match directors around.  They run successful clubs with well attended shoots, so they know from first hand experience what they are talking about. 

 

I know of a club that was drawing 30 to 60 shooters every month for their matches.  The matches were set up like everyone here is telling you.  Then this club got some new members on their governing board, and they went to setting the type of matches you want.  Now they get 10 to 20 shooters.  The club got smart and voted them out, got some of the old guard back.  They are trying to get people to come back, but it is hard to do because of the bad feelings created by the changes made by the new crew.  Hopefully this year more people will come back and see that things have changed to be shooter friendly again.

 

You are new to this game and do not have the experience that comes from being involved for many years.  Get out and shoot at other clubs, see what works for them.  Listen to the old hands, we know of what we tell you from experience.

 

 

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This is almost too painful to read. Stand and deliver at 20" targets 5 feet away, I will never come back. Make me drop to a knee or jump and I won't be back ether. Can't we play somewhere in the middle? 

Several mentions of 3 gun compition. That game is played by different people with a different mind set and very different firearms. Even steel challenge brings a completely different crowd.

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51 minutes ago, Duncan Disorderly said:

OK - I get that. So what IS entertainment then?

 

In this case, and most others, what people are willing to buy...

 

As for your club, run it the way you want, maybe you have a secret sauce we haven't figured out yet...we all want to grow this sport!

 

If you find something that works we'll all copy and steal with pleasure.  

 

I agree occasionally some of the things you mention are fun, but they will not grow the sport. The best shooters will always win. We need to cater to the middle of the pack. 

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3 minutes ago, Lead Monger said:

This is almost too painful to read. Stand and deliver at 20" targets 5 feet away, I will never come back. Make me drop to a knee or jump and I won't be back ether. Can't we play somewhere in the middle? 

Several mentions of 3 gun compition. That game is played by different people with a different mind set and very different firearms. Even steel challenge brings a completely different crowd.

the biggest drawing club in the area does this - big, bigger and close, closer and well, never too close.

lead splatter? yep, every stage from nearly every shooter.

But people brag about their fast times. Rarely does anyone exceed 25 or 30 seconds on a stage time.

they tell me they're copying state matches (ohio in particular). and eot and winter range. Not from what I see in the brochures/books from those matches, but a drawing isn't the same as being there of course.

The small, far, scenario based club is the one everyone whines about - yet they draw well also. typical stage times here are 50 to 60 seconds. I've shot stages where you run from one side of a bay to the other with the shotgun. Every stage you start holding something. And they have a horse. Buildings too. and doors to open. and..at times...OMG..50 yard targets.

Last match - 40% of the shooters avg 40 sec or better on stages. 45% did 50 sec or better. We had several first time shooters that of course were slower.
12% shot clean. Some say 10% is the figure to aim for, others say 20%.


114 stages shot and 8 procedurals. Don't know what a good or bad number is.

 

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Just now, Sgt. Chesty SASS # 73317 said:

 

In this case, and most others, what people are willing to buy...

 

As for your club, run it the way you want, maybe you have a secret sauce we haven't figured out yet...we all want to grow this sport!

 

If you find something that works we'll all copy and steal with pleasure.  

 

I agree occasionally some of the things you mention are fun, but they will not grow the sport. The best shooters will always win. We need to cater to the middle of the pack. 

I agree.
Making it easier changes nothing - the fast will still be fast.

So..what makes it fun for the middle of the pack?

Depends on why they come to shoot- social? then perhaps posse size, range conditions, noise level, bathroom cleanliness, food, etc are important factors.
To shoot clean? No target is too big or close to miss. And when I've done small/far and used the plate machine they're shot clean. Everyone hit the playing card. EVERYone.

So to be clean - slow the f' down. Aim. Aim better. Load your shotgun faster.

Maybe people want to show off - their costume, cart, guns or skills in speed or distance shooting. What is the appeal of side matches? costume contests? If not this.

make steel ring, make big smoke..that's fun!

I had no gun or ammo issues - that made me happy. With setting up, running the match, running interferance with the other people on the range, marketing to the peanut gallery, watching safety, registration, refreshments..I'm not able to truly concentrate on my game. So I get pleasure from other things at matches.

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