Adivce on using a 'horse' on stages?

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

DD, you seem to have this all worked out. Now it's time to show us how it's done. Please let us know the results.

[Duncan Disorderly]

On 3/25/2017 at 11:09 AM, evil dogooder said:

  I respectfully have to dissagree.  Look at the plain and simple facts. The largest growth in sports for those under 40 have lots of movement. 3 gun, idpa, airsoft, crossfit competitions, tough mudder events. All are booming.  Athletic competitions are what's popular right now. Standing still and shooting is boring. You will not attract or keep many young shooters that way. I love the friendships that i have found in sass, but i don't Go to clubs that set up mostly stand and deliver stages. I enjoy shooting 13 sec stages as much as the next guy but its just not that intriguing to do over and over.    Thats one of the big issues. You cant have both.  You can't make a stage that anyone 9 to 90 can shoot and expect it to challenge and interest everybody.

  To the op. Set up the stage as best you can to accommodate most. You'll never please everybody.  If i was close I'd come shoot it.

  

I try to mix it up - to appeal to everyone AT SOME POINT.

I've learned a few things, am still learning. Repeat sequences - pistol to pistol, rifle to pistol, etc. If you finish with pistol times are quicker. If you start at port arms, times are quicker.
Moving with a rifle is asking for 170 violations, especially if you move left (right handed shooters).

I try to mix it up and have one stand and deliver stage..often with portarms, pistol finish and only 2 shotgun..go ahead, brag about your time.

I throw in weird things as bonus targets - first, the weird is optional, not mandatory. Take 5 sec off and your time is quicker, you're happier. and you did the weird thing!! (like a 16" circle at 35 yards, or 8" tall knockdown cowboy at 20 yards). So far everyone has done it.

So I did teh little cowboy at 20 yards..and couldn't knock him down myself. Damn. no bonus and burned up the clock trying. it happens, right?

At other clubs i've never had a rifle or pistol reload. I hears they do this at the big matches. Yet nobody copies that locally. Talking to a MD from another area (suggested to me by others here...already doing it!) he does at times a pistol load on the clock - you put all 5 in one pistol that starts empty. Hmm...I know some are gonna hate it, but it will challenge everyone. Once a year? Fun!

I want to do a night shoot- still working on the logisitics of that. We have to stop shooting at 11pm..already it's light to nearly 8 pm.

[Sgt. Chesty SASS # 73317]

Make it fun and not too challenging. Especially for a local match that should be good. 

 

When I say entertaining, not too hard for a new shooter, and for a seasoned competitor, don't make them do something in the clock that they haven't trained for, specifically for a major match.  If IPSC or 3 gun matches start throwing knives or using a lasso at big matches we can talk.

 

 I look forward to meeting you face to face, we both want the same thing, more shooters!

 

[Mustang Gregg]

 

We use our horse only about once a season. 

He's called the "IRON HOSS" and is made of a water heater tank with steel pipe legs welded on.

He has a saddle blanket and holster on his withers. 

You always start the stage on him and you won't have any guns in your hands when mounting or dismounting.

If anyone does not feel comfortable sitting on him or has physical or size limitations, you can shoot from his side on your own hind legs.

 

Mustang Gregg

 

 

 

[Duncan Disorderly]

1 minute ago, Sgt. Chesty SASS # 73317 said:

Make it fun and not too challenging. Especially for a local match that should be good. 

 

When I say entertaining, not too hard for a new shooter, and for a seasoned competitor, don't make them do something in the clock that they haven't trained for, specifically for a major match.  If IPSC or 3 gun matches start throwing knives or using a lasso at big matches we can talk.

 

 I look forward to meeting you face to face, we both want the same thing, more shooters!

 

Ever watched a western?
Isn't that what we're doing, role playing, fantasy..re-enacting?

Why do we say lines to start a stage? Why do many stages have story lines with them?

I'm told this was how SASS started and it's evolved to be ever simpler and easier.

IMO we have to offer something interesting - be that exciting, challenging, etc - or we'll have a hard time getting shooters. 3GN has it easy - how many people own a glock-ish pistol and an AR? Add a shotgun and you can play army - grown up paint ball.

I know many that have a SA revolver..two? Few. SxS? fewer still. lever action rifle, sure..in a pistol caliber? nope, unless it's a henry. Hence I think the feedback that this is an expensive sport to get into.

For 3gn you buy your ammo off the shelf..for this? You pretty much gotta reload as lead factory ammo, especially in some calibers, is hard to find (locally)

The IDPA guy promotes his sport with the low cost and real life benefits of shooting your carry gun. I'll talk more with him about what stages draw folks in. I CAN tell you in no uncertian terms teh stages he ALWAYS talks about - his fastest ever or the weird ones - shooting from inside the trunk of a car, unlocking a box to get your gun then loading it (on the clock).  The same old same stages? nothing to talk about.

It's the age of social media-  if they're not talking bout you then you don't matter, don't exist.

So the young ones tell me

[Sgt. Chesty SASS # 73317]

3 minutes ago, Duncan Disorderly said:

Ever watched a western?
Isn't that what we're doing, role playing, fantasy..re-enacting?

Why do we say lines to start a stage? Why do many stages have story lines with them?

I'm told this was how SASS started and it's evolved to be ever simpler and easier.

IMO we have to offer something interesting - be that exciting, challenging, etc - or we'll have a hard time getting shooters. 3GN has it easy - how many people own a glock-ish pistol and an AR? Add a shotgun and you can play army - grown up paint ball.

I know many that have a SA revolver..two? Few. SxS? fewer still. lever action rifle, sure..in a pistol caliber? nope, unless it's a henry. Hence I think the feedback that this is an expensive sport to get into.

For 3gn you buy your ammo off the shelf..for this? You pretty much gotta reload as lead factory ammo, especially in some calibers, is hard to find (locally)

The IDPA guy promotes his sport with the low cost and real life benefits of shooting your carry gun. I'll talk more with him about what stages draw folks in. I CAN tell you in no uncertian terms teh stages he ALWAYS talks about - his fastest ever or the weird ones - shooting from inside the trunk of a car, unlocking a box to get your gun then loading it (on the clock).  The same old same stages? nothing to talk about.

It's the age of social media-  if they're not talking bout you then you don't matter, don't exist.

So the young ones tell me

 

Good luck!!

[Tracker Jack Daniels,58780]

Keep digging!

 

[Black Hills Barb]

We've been in this game for 17 years and shot from a variety of horses, one being the size of a real horse, another that rocked with the recoil.  It used to be fun.  There was even a pig we shot from.  I saw people do all this safely and some not so safely.  However, I was there when a senior shooter suffered a hip injury - not pleasant.  Then there was the time my dismount caused me to tear something in my calf.  I no longer do horses.  Good luck to you and all those that choose to do so.  As for me, I will take the penalty and avoid another painful experience.

[Sgt. Chesty SASS # 73317]

Just saying...

 

I understand what you are thinking...just listen to some advice from the fire...we want you to be successful, your success helps us all.

 

[Griff]

I don't believe that Duncan fits that.  I liked the horses... still do.   Even tho' I was outvoted on keeping them in our repertoire of props used as shooting platforms.  We used to have a "fort", that required shooting from an elevated platform.  We ended up loosing that portion of our range and it was torn down... Not rebuilt elsewhere.  But... I'd heard complaints from some quarters about "having" to climb the stairs.  So it's not surprising.  We used to have a stagecoach, that we shot from the seat, the interior, around and under... all things that have gone by the wayside due to complaints.

 

Duncan, I don't see, after reading your many posts, that you're wanting to try anything that Creeker isn't trying (with the exception of the horse)... (I could be wrong)... YOUR customers will let you know soon enough if they think you're nuts.  But, I predict that you'll not be replacing your 50-70+ year old customers with younger customers just thru a influx of more movement and "action".

 

This game flourished because the age crowd that began this sport already had 1, 2 or all the guns necessary to play; or, maybe even more importantly, the desire to have those guns!  The next generation to come along has different guns that caught their fancy.  Even if they have one or two of the guns, things "cowboy" doesn't spark their fire.  My son is a good example of this, he has ALL the guns and gear to play... but he'd rather shoot 3Gun.  Not because it's "more" action or fun... but their basic premise that "one shoots till one hits."   And having been caught at their time limit with targets left is frustrating for anyone.  I'd hate to add that to our game.  And I totally understand WHY they have a 3 minute limit to their stages.  (I wasn't the only one caught... nor did I finish last). 

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

One way we do the Horse Ride is ,,, Place both revolvers in the Center of Wagon bed pointed down-range , Shotgun stage open and empty pointed down-range in wagon bed behind rear wheels ,,,, move to the horse with rifle muzzle pointed up ( hammer down on empty chamber) and hand the rifle to the pard beside the horse ,,, get on horse ,,, when ready ask for your rifle, point rifle down-range .... To start stage with rifle safely pointed down-range , with both hands on rifle ( you may have it pointed at the target ) say your line, at the beep shoot your rifle until empty (usually ten rounds ) hand rifle to pard beside horse ...open and empty muzzle pointed up, dis-mount move to rear of wagon knock-down all 6 shotgun targets , stage shotgun open and empty anywhere in the bed of the wagon pointed down-range , use your revolvers to hit 10 targets in order declared, holster guns hammer down as per SASS rules ...

The horse has a saddle on it and also there is a step you can use to get on and off  , even our 8 year old girl can get on and off with ease ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Blackey Cole]

This is a topic that I wish to open some up to alternative ways to use if needed.  I've shoot from a horse several times over the years when I was younger and not mobility challenged it was fun as long as it was a stand and deleiver stage so mounting and dismounting was done off the clock.  The long gun scabbards or storage positions from the mounted position for the rifle and shogun is a must if I remember correctly one time we handed off the long guns but that is not desired in today's rules for many reasons.pommel holsters for the revolvers to be drawn and returned to works well.  Now to the way I wish to see horse props used under today's rules.  Ideally you use one of the props that hold the long sund parrallel to the ground with the peice for the sxsto hold them open and level. Stand be side either week or strong side shooters choice. Revolvers wore per normal and revolvers returned to shooters holsters.  If not like this allow the shooter to stand beside prop or sit upon if sit upon then make everything shot from the position of choice.  If you use a full size horse figure build a platform to make it very easy to mount and unmount. Or shoot from either size these and the grocery store type horses are much better used as decorations that props imo.

[Seldom Seen #16162]

On ‎3‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 1:08 PM, Redwood Kid said:

 But instead, what you want is to change the game to fit you rather than playing the game that was here long before you were.

 

Actually D.D. wants to return SASS Matches to it's original roots. Redwood Kid your membership number shows you missed the fun of shooting early matches.

 

The dumbing of SASS Matches began a long time. Ammunition that is allowed is the prime example. Loads that are so weak that SASS banned posting reloading data. 32 Long approved as match ammunition and still have shooters wanting to use 32 S&W because the recoil is too much with other ammunition.

 

At my last match I shot 45 Colt ammunition that I had reloaded for about mid-range velocity. I shoot one handed and the recoil shifted the gun upwards in my hand where it was closer to my thumb for cocking (just like the originals did). After I was done with one of the stages a friend said I need to reduce my loads because the gun shifted up in my hand when I shot it.

 

Oh I guess SASS finally adopted a minimum power factor but I have never heard of ammunition being tested at a match. SASS has had a good run but it is going to die out in many areas in the next 10 years simply because of the aging of the members and no appeal to bring in new, younger shooters.

 

I have always shot CAS only for fun. My ultimate goal is use the slowest guns possible. I am using C&B revolvers with plenty of real blackpowder and a single shot shotgun. However the thing that is standing in my way is a lever action rifle. My '73 is just too fast and I can not bring myself to fork over the $,$$$ for a Spencer (in 56-50 loaded with blackpowder of course).

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

1 hour ago, Seldom Seen #16162 said:

 

 

 

The dumbing of SASS Matches began a long time. Ammunition that is allowed is the prime example. Loads that are so weak that SASS banned posting reloading data. 32 Long approved as match ammunition and still have shooters wanting to use 32 S&W because the recoil is too much with other ammunition.

 

 

Oh I guess SASS finally adopted a minimum power factor but I have never heard of ammunition being tested at a match.

 

 

32 and 38 caliber ammo is quite legal no matter the brass length as long as it meets the SASS power factor. 32 S&W can be easily loaded to meet the SASS power factor.   Yes ammo has been tested to verify it meets the power factor at many matches both below and above State level matches.  SASS banned posting reloading data to avoid any liability of bad data no matter the load levels.  Might want to check your facts.

[Duncan Disorderly]

7 hours ago, Blackey Cole said:

This is a topic that I wish to open some up to alternative ways to use if needed.  I've shoot from a horse several times over the years when I was younger and not mobility challenged it was fun as long as it was a stand and deleiver stage so mounting and dismounting was done off the clock.  The long gun scabbards or storage positions from the mounted position for the rifle and shogun is a must if I remember correctly one time we handed off the long guns but that is not desired in today's rules for many reasons.pommel holsters for the revolvers to be drawn and returned to works well.  Now to the way I wish to see horse props used under today's rules.  Ideally you use one of the props that hold the long sund parrallel to the ground with the peice for the sxsto hold them open and level. Stand be side either week or strong side shooters choice. Revolvers wore per normal and revolvers returned to shooters holsters.  If not like this allow the shooter to stand beside prop or sit upon if sit upon then make everything shot from the position of choice.  If you use a full size horse figure build a platform to make it very easy to mount and unmount. Or shoot from either size these and the grocery store type horses are much better used as decorations that props imo.

I've gotten some PMs and emails with pictures and ideas, some using pipe, cut pipe, shelves as well as scabbards and holsters.
Seems some are fearful to post here and be called trolls and such. Shame. Just another sign of our great country going down the drain due to intolerance of any idea that is different.

Anyway, at RO classes it was mentioned to not risk movement that can cause a gun drop - so getting on/off a horse (or other prop) should be done a) empty handed and second be wary of pistols in holsters that might fall out.

And you have to allow for 'normal' shooters as well as gunfighters, don't favor doubles or 97's over one another, left handed vs right handed shooters (lateral movement with long gun in hand)

[Duncan Disorderly]

23 minutes ago, Gold Canyon Kid #43974 said:

32 and 38 caliber ammo is quite legal no matter the brass length as long as it meets the SASS power factor. 32 S&W can be easily loaded to meet the SASS power factor.   Yes ammo has been tested to verify it meets the power factor at many matches both below and above State level matches.  SASS banned posting reloading data to avoid any liability of bad data no matter the load levels.  Might want to check your facts.

I was told/read/taught to NEVER go below min load weights on powder..yet people talk about doing it all the time

It can be a challenge - some loads are too light to knockdown targets and then someone comes with a full power 45 or black powder load and takes out the entire target, stand and all.
Most shooters seem to carry 2 shotgun loads - one light for most targets and something hotter for when you need it. A top shot locally loads his shotgun shells hot - I asked why and he says he shoots fast and therefore may not get a full load of pellets on the knockdown, and with a hot load it will still go down. A different perspective than most!

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

4 hours ago, Seldom Seen #16162 said:

 

Actually D.D. wants to return SASS Matches to it's original roots. Redwood Kid your membership number shows you missed the fun of shooting early matches.

 

The dumbing of SASS Matches began a long time. Ammunition that is allowed is the prime example. Loads that are so weak that SASS banned posting reloading data. 32 Long approved as match ammunition and still have shooters wanting to use 32 S&W because the recoil is too much with other ammunition.

 

At my last match I shot 45 Colt ammunition that I had reloaded for about mid-range velocity. I shoot one handed and the recoil shifted the gun upwards in my hand where it was closer to my thumb for cocking (just like the originals did). After I was done with one of the stages a friend said I need to reduce my loads because the gun shifted up in my hand when I shot it.

 

Oh I guess SASS finally adopted a minimum power factor but I have never heard of ammunition being tested at a match. SASS has had a good run but it is going to die out in many areas in the next 10 years simply because of the aging of the members and no appeal to bring in new, younger shooters.

 

I have always shot CAS only for fun. My ultimate goal is use the slowest guns possible. I am using C&B revolvers with plenty of real blackpowder and a single shot shotgun. However the thing that is standing in my way is a lever action rifle. My '73 is just too fast and I can not bring myself to fork over the $,$$$ for a Spencer (in 56-50 loaded with blackpowder of course).

Since you're making reference to sass numbers, how can you say Duncan wants to return to the original roots when his number is 3000 higher than mine? No, what he wants to do is bring back the fun stuff (which I too would like to see), but at the expense of all of the people that have been shooting this game since the beginning. He even mentions that they can move on to other shooting sports and basically get out of the way so he can play the game he wants to play. I think if he had left all of that stuff out and approached this differently he might have received a much different response.

[Seldom Seen #16162]

 

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Gold Canyon Kid says 32 and 38 caliber ammo is quite legal no matter the brass length as long as it meets the SASS power factor.

 

I never said it wasn’t.

 

 

Quote

32 S&W can be easily loaded to meet the SASS power factor.

 

Which means it still is mouse fart ammunition.

 

 

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Yes ammo has been tested to verify it meets the power factor at many matches both below and above State level matches.

 

Really?

Where?

When?

How was the ammunition tested?

How was the power factor measured?

How many competitor’s loads tested?

Why were they tested?

How many matches have tested ammunition for power factor? 

 

 

Quote

SASS banned posting reloading data to avoid any liability of bad data no matter the load levels.

 

Because folks were posting reloading data using powder and charges that were below the minimum loads published in reloading manuals.

...

[Seldom Seen #16162]

9 hours ago, Redwood Kid said:

Since you're making reference to sass numbers, how can you say Duncan wants to return to the original roots when his number is 3000 higher than mine?

 

D.D. may have not been there in the early days of SASS but I was. But if the standard is a person had to be present when a event took place in order to comment on it then we should disregard all of the history we never personally witnessed.

 

Quote

No, what he wants to do is bring back the fun stuff (which I too would like to see), but at the expense of all of the people that have been shooting this game since the beginning. He even mentions that they can move on to other shooting sports and basically get out of the way so he can play the game he wants to play.

 

So what? Things change as we get older. When I find something I can no longer do I either  quit doing it or do it differently. Hell I can whine about health problems as well and even better than a lot of the other old guys on this forum...

 

Let's see rotator cuff surgery on both shoulders, knee surgery on leg, total knee replacement on the other, tried to die a while back and spent three days in the hospital plugged into I.V. bags running full blast while the Doctors tried to figure out was wrong (they didn't). Oh had the double heart bypass three years ago. Take so many prescription drugs for these and other aliments I have to line my pills up so I know which was to take in the morning and ones to take at night. That's just a few.

 

Oh Doc says I need eye surgery. I am putting it off until next year as I want to go a whole year without any operations.

 

(whine, whine, sniff, sniff, cry, cry)

 

 

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I think if he had left all of that stuff out and approached this differently he might have received a much different response.

 

What we should recognized the Cowboy Action Shooting is not SASS but SASS is Cowboy Action Shooting. Clubs can and do have CAS matches without any affiliation to SASS. The responses to this topic proves that the majority of the posters are not interested in shooting stages that require physical activity or use of props.

 

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[Seldom Seen #16162]

On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 10:30 PM, Seldom Seen #16162 said:

Quote

Yes ammo has been tested to verify it meets the power factor at many matches both below and above State level matches.

 

Really?

Where?

When?

How was the ammunition tested?

How was the power factor measured?

How many competitor’s loads tested?

Why were they tested?

How many matches have tested ammunition for power factor? 

 

 

Hummm, No answer yet so maybe it ain't so.

[Tracker Jack Daniels,58780]

Seldom Seen, I have been at matches where they have checked a shooter's ammo for power factor, and others where ammo was tested to see if it conformed with the smoke requirement.  Just because you have not been a witness to these types of events does not mean they do not happen.  I for one never talk about these things because they can cast a poor light upon both the match and the shooter.  Just because someone has their ammo tested does not mean they are guilty of anything.  All it means is there was a challenge made, and the match director thought there was sufficient grounds to go through the trouble of testing.  For your information I have never witnessed a shooter failing the power factor test, I have seen one fail, repeatedly, to make the minimum amount of smoke. 

 

It is not the cowboy way or polite to accuse someone of telling a lie without facts to back up your call!  You owe Gold Canyon Kid an apology!!!!

[Seldom Seen #16162]

11 hours ago, Tracker Jack Daniels, 58780 said:

I have been at matches where they have checked a shooter's ammo for power factor, and others where ammo was tested to see if it conformed with the smoke requirement. 

 

Then I will ask you the same questions;

Where?

When?

How was the ammunition tested?

How was the power factor measured?

How many competitor’s loads tested?

Why were they tested?

How many matches have tested ammunition for power factor? 

 

11 hours ago, Tracker Jack Daniels, 58780 said:

 

All it means is there was a challenge made, and the match director thought there was sufficient grounds to go through the trouble of testing.

 

So does that mean I can challenge everyone's ammunition?

 

11 hours ago, Tracker Jack Daniels, 58780 said:

 

  For your information I have never witnessed a shooter failing the power factor test, I have seen one fail, repeatedly, to make the minimum amount of smoke. 

 

I bet that is interesting one to measure.

 

11 hours ago, Tracker Jack Daniels, 58780 said:

 

It is not the cowboy way or polite to accuse someone of telling a lie without facts to back up your call!  You owe Gold Canyon Kid an apology!!!!

 

Asking for more information when someone makes a claim is not the same as calling them a liar.

 

Just for the record I am not calling you a liar either. I am asking you for more information as I fail to see the reason for checking the "power factor" requirement when 32 S&W meets the requirement.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Time to move on and put this thread to bed.