WTC

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

It's a difference of opinion really.....there is nothing in the current SASS manuals that would indicate one way or the other.

 

Opinion 1. Is that at the beginning of the stage ALL the targets were Pistol/Rifle targets and that doesn't change when rounds start going down range. 

 

Opinion 2. Is that at the beginning of the stage ALL the targets were Pistol/Rifle targets and  target types will change depending on what type firearm hits each target.

 

I respectfully ask Pale Wolf to take this to the ROC for a clarification.

 

Stan

 

PS. I feel that Opinion 2 is taking a much harder stance and is direct opposition of tenet 4 of the RO1 "Range Officer Attitude"

[Griff]

3 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Okay this is getting interesting, I think I'm going back to thinking it's a "P", in simple terms he shot the stage wrong....P

Now, you're inserting "shooter's intent" into your decision making on penalty assessment.

 

For purposes of determining "hits", there are only those targets designated for that type of firearm and props not declared expendable.  Everything else is just the same as the backstop. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

"5-SECOND PENALTIES

...

 

Each target hit with an incorrect firearm, either intentionally or by mistake"

 

 As previously noted, once the shooter chose one of the targets as a rifle target, it was no longer an "R/P" target...that leaves the OTHER target as a designated PISTOL target.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

This topic has been taken to the ROC for a consensus opinion.

[Griff]

4 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Stan

 

I feel that Opinion 2 is taking a much harder stance and is direct opposition of tenet 4 of the RO1 "Range Officer Attitude"

Stan,  I'm not agreeing with ya, nor disagreeing.   But my question would be to the TO, "...why in God's little green acres weren't you (insert favorite naval expletive here) yellin' in the shooter's ear, 'THE OTHER TARGET'!!"  

[Blackwater 53393]

7 minutes ago, Griff said:

Stan,  I'm not agreeing with ya, nor disagreeing.   But my question would be to the TO, "...why in God's little green acres weren't you (insert favorite naval expletive here) yellin' in the shooter's ear, 'THE OTHER TARGET'!!"  

 

 

That's what I was thinkin' all along.  Ain't sayin' anything else!!

[Wyatt]

It's never the shooters fault.

 

Poo happens 

[Griff]

8 minutes ago, Wyatt said:

It's never the shooters fault.

 

Poo happens 

Wrong... it's ALWAYS the shooter's fault.  Which is why good TOs try so gol-darned hard to keep poo from happening.  I could easily see me blithely shooting my 10 pistol shot on the wrong target, then turning to the TO and ask, "... what were you trying to say?"

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

20 rounds on 2 targets? Ugh. We continue to hurtle downhill...

[Cassalong Hopidy]

30 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

It's a difference of opinion really.....there is nothing in the current SASS manuals that would indicate one way or the other.

 

Opinion 1. Is that at the beginning of the stage ALL the targets were Pistol/Rifle targets and that doesn't change when rounds start going down range. 

 

Opinion 2. Is that at the beginning of the stage ALL the targets were Pistol/Rifle targets and  target types will change depending on what type firearm hits each target.

 

I respectfully ask Pale Wolf to take this to the ROC for a clarification.

 

Stan

 

PS. I feel that Opinion 2 is taking a much harder stance and is direct opposition of tenet 4 of the RO1 "Range Officer Attitude"

Stan

 

I don't follow the contention that they "change."  At the beginning of the stage, there are, say, 2 targets denominated Rifle/Pistol.  One is for rifle, the other for pistol.  At no time are both available for both rifle AND pistol. So one is a rifle target all along, the other a pistol target. The shooter is not changing anything, just deciding which is which.

[Cypress Sun]

Wyatt has 22 likes.....wow.

[Wyatt]

23 minutes ago, Lone Dog, SASS #20401 said:

20 rounds on 2 targets? Ugh. We continue to hurtle downhill...

 

As usual........you are incorrect 

 

The original OP was presented just for discussion  and In no way represents an actual stage 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Quote

At the beginning of the stage all the targets are pistol/rifle targets........

No, at the beginning of the stage, one is a rifle target and one is a pistol target.  That is clear from the stage instructions in the OP.  The posse does not yet know which one is which, because shooter was not asked to tell the posse before he started the stage which one he had decided to use as the rifle target.   

 

At that point, only the shooter knows which is which.  His first rifle shot that hits a target declares which is the rifle target.  His revolver shots all missed the target he had declared was going to be his revolver target.   Thus they are all misses.

 

And, yeah, I stick by my earlier claim that this is a nasty stage design.  Think that has been reinforced in spades already.  

 

Good luck, GJ

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

20 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

No, at the beginning of the stage, one is a rifle target and one is a pistol target.  That is clear from the stage instructions in the OP.  The posse does not yet know which one is which, because shooter was not asked to tell the posse before he started the stage which one he had decided to use as the rifle target.   

 

At that point, only the shooter knows which is which.  His first rifle shot that hits a target declares which is the rifle target.  His revolver shots all missed the target he had declared was going to be his revolver target.   Thus they are all misses.

 

And, yeah, I stick by my earlier claim that this is a nasty stage design.  Think that has been reinforced in spades already.  

 

Good luck, GJ

Actually it was a good stage. 8 big targets set in pairs of two with shotgun targets between them. Nothing particularly difficult at all. As with any stage it is possible for shooters to get off base. 

 

Stan

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

I understand both arguments here and originally thought the 10 misses call was the correct one however, having given it a little more thought I feel that a P is the appropriate penalty in this case. There were 2 targets which could both either be rifle or pistol targets before the beep and I don't think that should change as the stage progresses. 

Imagine a stage with 6 targets, instructions say to shoot 10 on any 5 of them. Shooter accidentally shoots all 6. Which target do you assess a miss or misses for? Or do you just give them the P for not following the instructions since they did hit the correct type of target when they should have shot any of the other ones? 

[Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator]

The shooter had the option of picking which target was for the rifle. Once they selected that target, the other target defaulted to the pistol target. All misses.

[Blackwater 53393]

Hey PW!!  I'm betting four pages!!   

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

poor stage design?  no,,, just a very lil bit of memory, and or a good TO to help........... fortunately for the shooter it was only 4 misses if he didn't repeat the mistake with second pistol...  there was a knock down that cud be made up

 

the actual stage was a great one

 

[Wyatt]

17 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

poor stage design?  no,,, just a very lil bit of memory, and or a good TO to help........... fortunately for the shooter it was only 4 misses if he didn't repeat the mistake with second pistol...  there was a knock down that cud be made up

 

the actual stage was a great one

 

 

One of my favorites as well

 

Even Cypress Sun probably "liked" it 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

let me get this straight, it's a P trap if you have 2 targets and you say to shoot one with rifle and the other with pistols?

[Rye Miles #13621]

3 hours ago, Griff said:

Now, you're inserting "shooter's intent" into your decision making on penalty assessment.

 

For purposes of determining "hits", there are only those targets designated for that type of firearm and props not declared expendable.  Everything else is just the same as the backstop. 

I'm not inserting shooter's intent! I doubt very much if it was his intent to shoot the stage wrong! He just shot it wrong period! 

[Captain Bill Burt]

Had I been there I would have called misses.

[Griff]

19 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Had I been there I would have called misses.

  But, first... don't you have to ask who the shooter is?    Aye Gawd, by some folks' reasoning we wouldn't want to give a top shooter 50 seconds of penalty when we could get away with 10!

 

Just to be absolutely sure... It's a JOKE children!

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

5 hours ago, Lone Dog, SASS #20401 said:

20 rounds on 2 targets? Ugh. We continue to hurtle downhill...

Actually it was 20 rounds on 8 static targets and 4 knockdowns. 

 

Stan

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Quote

Imagine a stage with 6 targets, instructions say to shoot 10 on any 5 of them. Shooter accidentally shoots all 6. Which target do you assess a miss or misses for? Or do you just give them the P for not following the instructions since they did hit the correct type of target when they should have shot any of the other ones? 

 

This new scenario has instructions to use only 5 of the targets for that type of firearm.  One shot was placed badly by hitting that 6th target of the correct type.  So, shooter failed to follow stage instructions.  THERE would be the P that folks keep looking for.  But, this scenario is NOT at all related to the one in the OP, as this new one does not have any "targets which were not to be shot by that firearm" being hit.  Call would be a P (no misses) for this.

 

When you keep all the hits on the right type of targets, then there ARE NO MISSES.  But there is still the possibility of a P when instructions are not followed..

 

Good luck, GJ

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

6 hours ago, Wyatt said:

 

As usual........you are incorrect 

 

The original OP was presented just for discussion  and In no way represents an actual stage 

 

Ha ha ok pard I stand corrected but it was your description in the OP led me in that direction. Just because we may disagree about the current CAS trends does not make either of us incorrect, opinions are like a-holes as we all know...

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

1 hour ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Actually it was 20 rounds on 8 static targets and 4 knockdowns. 

 

Stan

 

 

Well alrighty then that sounds way mo better and much fun, unlike the no fun two target thing the OP engenders in the reader's mind. Thanks for the clarification pard.

[Rio Brazos Kid]

   Go back and READ Pale Wolfs post.  That's the correct call, like it or not.

 

      RBK

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

What if... I know.. Playing make believe here..

But the shooter after shooting the rifle first said..

"My first rifle target was a miss.. I aimed to shoot the other targets.."

Nevermind... It would still be 10 misses.. Or would it only be 9??

 

Rance

Thinkin' it's too early to be Thinkin'.

Or is this stirring the proverbial pot??

 

[Your Nemesis]

I think some are reading to much into this.  The first rifle shot determined which target would be rifle and which would be pistol.  They were never a r/p target. An r/p target is one that is intended to be shot by both style of guns and in this case they were not so intended. The target designation was determined by the shooter.  He hit the first target with the rifle and assume he had hit all ten no misses.  pulled pistols did not shoot the target he determined to be the pistol target.  Every round that went down range out of a pistol that did not hit the target that he determined to be pistol was a miss.  If he had decided to for example alternate between the targets with the rifle it would have been 5 hits 5 misses the FIRST round determined target designation.

[Chancy Shot, SASS #67163]

3 hours ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

What if... I know.. Playing make believe here..

But the shooter after shooting the rifle first said..

"My first rifle target was a miss.. I aimed to shoot the other targets.."

Nevermind... It would still be 10 misses.. Or would it only be 9??

 

Rance

Thinkin' it's too early to be Thinkin'.

Or is this stirring the proverbial pot??

 

Definitely stirring the pot.  Rance, Its not that early

 

Chancy

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

18 hours ago, Griff said:

Stan,  I'm not agreeing with ya, nor disagreeing.   But my question would be to the TO, "...why in God's little green acres weren't you (insert favorite naval expletive here) yellin' in the shooter's ear, 'THE OTHER TARGET'!!"  

As a shooter who has engaged the wrong type of targets with the rifle, got 10 misses, and  the TO didn't say anything, I can see why a TO might not say anything.. His reasoning was that he didn't want to confuse me. IMO that was sound reasoning as he had never shot with me before, I probably would not have known what he meant, and it may have taken longer to figure out what he meant than to finish as started and take the misses. Just guessing. No hard feelings here.

 

[COLORADO JACKSON]

18 hours ago, Smokestack said:

I understand both arguments here and originally thought the 10 misses call was the correct one however, having given it a little more thought I feel that a P is the appropriate penalty in this case. There were 2 targets which could both either be rifle or pistol targets before the beep and I don't think that should change as the stage progresses. 

Imagine a stage with 6 targets, instructions say to shoot 10 on any 5 of them. Shooter accidentally shoots all 6. Which target do you assess a miss or misses for? Or do you just give them the P for not following the instructions since they did hit the correct type of target when they should have shot any of the other ones? 

I am also in the P camp...

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

22 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Once the shooter chose a target for the rifle engagement, the other target became a pistol target.

Rounds fired from a pistol that fail to HIT a pistol target are scored as MISSES...whether they HIT another type target or not.

 

21 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

This post is pinned & locked at the top of the forum:

 

 

 

20 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

"5-SECOND PENALTIES

...

 

Each target hit with an incorrect firearm, either intentionally or by mistake"

 

 As previously noted, once the shooter chose one of the targets as a rifle target, it was no longer an "R/P" target...that leaves the OTHER target as a designated PISTOL target.

 

20 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

This topic has been taken to the ROC for a consensus opinion.

 

The Range Operations Committee is in agreement on this.

UNDER the current rules:  pistol HITS on RIFLE targets are MISSES...please refer to the rules quoted in the above copied posts.

 

 

 

[Blackwater 53393]

I'm STILL betting on AT LEAST another half a page!!