evil dogooder Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 A few months ago i asked if you could have anything from ruger, what would it be. The biggest response i recieved was for 44-40 vaqueros. Well. Things have progressed to the point where the dealer is seriously considering it.. Now ruger needs to have a minimum order. So what we are asking is how many are serious about getting one or two? The gunshop is willing to do the order. However since the guns have to be paid for before ruger Will do the run, he wants to make sure he doesn't lose his shirt. The goal Is 200 units. However if we get close we will make it work. So far between the owners, crew of the shop, and friends we have ten accounted for. I'm not asking for orders but if you seriously want some please let me know. Pm or email would work best for keeping a tally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 If Major Art Tillery sees this he is going to be EXCITED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I presume these the non Bisley models only? Any barrel length? How about finish options? Blued only, stainless, a real CCH? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 There will limited options because this Will be a limited run. However the good news Is that we get to choose the options. Quite frankly it Will depend on numbers. A minimum of 100 per choice. So hypotheticly if we order 200 you could get two barrel lengths. Finish would have to be something currently offered. Same with grips and frame. Basicly this is a chance for those interested to say they helped design a gun and how cool is that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge'm All Duncan, SASS#67320 Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 I'm in for 2 pistols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadeye George Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Looks like a LONG way to go, from 10 to 200 but count me in for a pair of 4 5/8" revolvers, any finish if reasonably priced. Any idea of a ballpark price yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Art Tillery Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 OH BOY!!! **Does an excited little jig**. I would figure out a way to purchase two.. so put me down. At least a 5 1/2 barrel... Maybe with lowered hammers already? Plow grip frame. Stainless or blue with case hardened frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 I doubt Ruger is going to reintroduce the Vaquero for a 200 gun order. The New Vaquero cylinder won't accept the .44-40. Yes, I know that someone will undoubtably pipe in that they have done it on a custom basis. But, I choose to believe the manufacturer when they say the cylinder won't accomodate the .44-40 for a production gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Grass Range #51406 Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 I would take 2, CCH, 5 1/2" unless you decide to put real barrels on them, like 7 1/2" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 I'm surprised at you Major. 5 1/2" barrels? Whaaaaaaa? I figgered you'd be ordering Buntlines! Depending on finish (I'd like a nice CCH), I'd take two with 5 1/2" barrels. If the price ain't obscene. (I gotta keep up with you, Travis. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 4 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said: I doubt Ruger is going to reintroduce the Vaquero for a 200 gun order. The New Vaquero cylinder won't accept the .44-40. Yes, I know that someone will undoubtably pipe in that they have done it on a custom basis. But, I choose to believe the manufacturer when they say the cylinder won't accomodate the .44-40 for a production gun. I've never done the measurements, but this is what I've always heard too; there will never be a production New Vaquero in .44-40 or .38-40 because the rims are a tad too large - some brands of brass will work, barely, and some won't. If it were viable, I would think Davidson's would already have commissioned a run of .44-40's. Near as I can tell though, a New Vaquero cylinder is ~.023" larger in diameter than a Colt cylinder, and maybe .001" larger than USFA, and both of them were able to do it, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 5 hours ago, Deadeye George said: Looks like a LONG way to go, from 10 to 200 but count me in for a pair of 4 5/8" revolvers, any finish if reasonably priced. Any idea of a ballpark price yet? Yes it is a long way. But we are gaining. So far between here and pm's we are at 36 I dont know about davidsons but i do know jim has conversed with lipseys quite a bit about this. As well as talo. They also said you would never see a vaquero in 44 mag again, and they are on the shelves now. Im not going to argue here about it. As was stated we are a long way from 200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 43 minutes ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said: I've never done the measurements, but this is what I've always heard too; there will never be a production New Vaquero in .44-40 or .38-40 because the rims are a tad too large - some brands of brass will work, barely, and some won't. If it were viable, I would think Davidson's would already have commissioned a run of .44-40's. Near as I can tell though, a New Vaquero cylinder is ~.023" larger in diameter than a Colt cylinder, and maybe .001" larger than USFA, and both of them were able to do it, so... In addition to cylinder diameter you also have to factor in the base circle. The distance from the centerline of the cylinder to the centerline of the chambers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Whiskers Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Ok, I'm no gunsmith, don't claim to be and quite frankly I'm not a Ruger fan but they do make great guns. Why can't the cylinders take 44-40 when they can take 45 Colt? Isn't the 45 larger than 44-40 .452 compared to .427-.430 ? From the OAL chart the 44-40 is 1.592 and the 45 Colt is 1.60. (virtually the same OAL). What am I missing as to why the cylinders won't work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Rim size, Charlie. The .45 Colt rim is .512", and the .44-40 is ~.525". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Whiskers Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 10 minutes ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said: Rim size, Charlie. The .45 Colt rim is .512", and the .44-40 is ~.525". Ahhh...ok that explains it...thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Whiskers Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 J Bar...sent you a PM on a different subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasty Nels Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 I'd be good for a pair! NN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 No thanks, I'll stick with Colts and clones! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Jones, SASS 2263 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 I'm in for a pair. I would prefer the 5 1/2 inch bbls. Checking with a friend who shoots 2 Ruger New Vaqueros in 38-40. He bought them about 3-4 yrs ago, as I recall, and said they were a special order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 21 minutes ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said: I'm in for a pair. I would prefer the 5 1/2 inch bbls. Checking with a friend who shoots 2 Ruger New Vaqueros in 38-40. He bought them about 3-4 yrs ago, as I recall, and said they were a special order. Betcha they are Vaqueros and not New Vaqueros. Ruger made up a batch of dual cylinder .40 S&W/.38-40 Vaqueros a few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Jones, SASS 2263 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 4 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said: Betcha they are Vaqueros and not New Vaqueros. Ruger made up a batch of dual cylinder .40 S&W/.38-40 Vaqueros a few years ago. You're probably right, Larsen. I can't remember which ones he has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 I would guess they'd have to be Old Model Vaqueros. I love them in .44-40. Unfortunately for this situation I have all I need or can afford. But I wish everyone the best of luck getting the new batch run off. Just be sure Ruger does NOT follow the SAAMI standard for bullet diameter if they are going to use .429" groove diameter barrels. And have them make the chamber throats the SAME diameter as the grooves, and the chambers big enough to accept .430" bullets brass (Winchester or Starline)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
three by eight Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 I am in for a pair in 5 1/2 Stainless or 7 1/2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Okay I may be really dumb but I still don't understand why Colt, Uberti and Pietta can do it and Ruger can't! I know rim size yadda yadda but really?? I think they just don't want to do it because there's no $$$ in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Once again, I haven't done the measurements, but maybe Ruger intentionally made the "base circle" slightly smaller in order to keep the new smaller framed revolvers stronger than Uberti, Pietta, and Colt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 6 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: Okay I may be really dumb but I still don't understand why Colt, Uberti and Pietta can do it and Ruger can't! I know rim size yadda yadda but really?? I think they just don't want to do it because there's no $$$ in it. Because a Ruger is a Ruger and a Colt is a Colt and they are not designed the same. It's late and I'm too tired to measure every dimensional difference. Here are a few quick measurements: Ruger Cylinder OD 1.675", cylinder wall thickness .140", minimum ratchet dimension for rim clearance .565". (Ruger ratchets are round) Colt Cylinder OD 1.650", cylinder wall thickness .125", minimum ratchet dimension for rim clearance .515". (Colt ratchets are scalloped to curve around the rims. The Colt ratchet is almost .650" across its widest part but has six hour-glass shaped segments.) Visually the Ruger ratchet looks much smaller than the Colt ratchet and looks like it has more room for the rims. However, the Colt has more room for the rims because of the scalloping. Ruger on left, Colt on right. Look at the amount of rim space on the Colt compared to the Ruger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 4 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said: Because a Ruger is a Ruger and a Colt is a Colt and they are not designed the same. It's late and I'm too tired to measure every dimensional difference. Here are a few quick measurements: Ruger Cylinder OD 1.675", cylinder wall thickness .140", minimum ratchet dimension for rim clearance .565". (Ruger ratchets are round) Colt Cylinder OD 1.650", cylinder wall thickness .125", minimum ratchet dimension for rim clearance .515". (Colt ratchets are scalloped to curve around the rims. The Colt ratchet is almost .650" across its widest part but has six hour-glass shaped segments.) Visually the Ruger ratchet looks much smaller than the Colt ratchet and looks like it has more room for the rims. However, the Colt has more room for the rims because of the scalloping. Ruger on left, Colt on right. Look at the amount of rim space on the Colt compared to the Ruger. Wow, thanks Larsen, that explains alot!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deacon Henry, SASS #53503L Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Thanks Larsen on a great follow up on the dimensions with photos ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodbury Kane Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 And just out of the curiosity... I had to try it. Just dropped six .44-40 cases in .45colt RNV cylinder... yep they fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 32 minutes ago, Little Cassino said: And just out of the curiosity... I had to try it. Just dropped six .44-40 cases in .45colt RNV cylinder... yep they fit. Sheesh, yes they fit. The .45 Colt is .480 at the base. The .44-40 is .471. That means the .44-40 can move .009 over to the side opposite the ratchet. Sure it will clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 The reason for the smaller base circle on the New Vaquero cylinders is because the cylinders are smaller than the Old Vaqueros (more like a Colt's SAA cylinder), and in order to maintain a thick enough wall thickness they made the base circle smaller. Although the stated strength for the New Vaqueros is the same as a Colt's, I have been told (by a Ruger engineer) that the actual proof strength of the New Vaqueros is the same as the Old Model Vaquero. But they won't warrantee the heavier loads in the NM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I would bet that Ruger will simply use the larger frame and cylinder of the OMV if they do a special run of 44/40 vaqueros. Much like they did for the special run of Talo 44 mag birdshead sheriffs models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Would it be possible to machine the scallop on the new vaquero cylinder? Or would it still be off? Just wondering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Howdy I remember doing the math when this subject first came up a long time ago. With the larger diameter rim of the 44-40, you cannot guarantee that 44-40 rims will seat without interfering with each other in a cylinder the size of the New Vaquero. If the rims are on the smaller end of the tolerance spread for 44-40 rims, then they will drop in. But if they are on the high end, they will bump into each other. Here is the SAMMI drawing for the 44-40 cartridge and chamber. Rim diameter is specified as .525 - .010. That means the maximum allowable diameter of the rim is .525 and the minimum allowable rim diameter is .515. I always use Starline 44-40 brass these days and rim diameters usually run right in the middle, around .519-.520. If the chambers are a little bit sloppy, 44-40 rounds with .520 diameter rims will probably seat OK and not interfere with each other. But if the chambers are tight, and rim diameters are at the max, there will be interference. I tend to doubt Ruger will chamber a cylinder for a cartridge if the tolerance study shows there may be a problem with cartridges seating fully. I may be wrong. But when I was in the manufacturing world the first thing we did before we cut any metal was a tolerance study to see what was possible. Regarding throwing 44-40 rounds into 45 Colt chambers, of course it will work, because the 44-40 rounds slop around in the chambers. Regarding why New Vaqueros have a base circle diameter that causes this problem and Colts do not, that is simply the way they were designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Pete SASS #42168 Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Last year at WR I asked the Ruger folks about Vaqueros in 44-40. Their answer was that they had no plans to build any. There was no demand. IF a distributor wanted to do a distributor exclusive and buy the entire production run they would talk about it. Loosely translated, they moved all of the risk to the distributor. This year at WR I asked the same question. Their answer was a polite but firm "no". The person I spoke with said 44-40 had not even come up in discussion in their marketing meetings. I have a pair of OMVs that I really wish were 44-40 but ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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