38-40 reloading issues UPDATED 3/15

[Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L]

So I picked up my new to me Uberti 1866 carbine (Cimarron imported) in 38-40. At the time of purchase, the gun store employee (his personal rifle) said he would throw in a partial box of Winchester factory ammo. When my 10 day wait was over I went in and picked up the gun. As luck would have it, the employee was on his days off and they couldn't find the ammo.

 

A couple days later the gun owner called and said he had the ammo for me. When I got there he had the box of Winchester with only three rounds fired and two boxes of commercial reloads with ten rounds fired. He proceeded to tell me the factory rounds chambered and fired fine, but the reloads would not chamber freely, but would close with the bolt. He said the store's gunsmith said the reloads probably didnt' have the shoulder set back enough. So I took the ammo and went home.

 

During my ten day wait I purchased a quantity of once fired Starline cases from a good pard on the Wire and  RCBS Cowboy dies and accessories from Midway. I set the dies correctly and resized a small quantity of the cases. I tried the resized cases in the rifle and they all chambered with a good "plop". When I got the ammo, the Winchester plopped in but the commercial reloads went in with about 1/32 of the case sticking out. The bolt would close with not much additional effort. I pulled a couple of the bullets and loaded them into my resized cases (which chambered fine). They wouldn't chamber fully and stuck out of the chamber about twice as far as the reloads (1/16) and would not close with the bolt. These were crimped into the crimp groove with a Lee factory crimp die (set per instructions). I thought maybe the reloads were .403, causing the chambering issue. I pulled a Winchester factory bullet (supposedly .400 as they are JSP) loaded it into my resized case and it chambered about as well as the reloads, OK but not freely. I also measured the pulled lead and found they were at .400, so that eliminated an oversize bullet as the cause.

 

Another thought was the ogive of the bullet was contacting the rifling of the gun, so I set the bullet deeper, past the crimp groove and at the driving band just before the ogive. Better, but still no go. The only thing I can determine is the bullet used by the commercial reloader is fault - or - my chamber was not cut correctly. The reloads appear to use Oregon Trail bullets, which only come in .401, so should not present a problem.

 

I measured all loaded ammo (OAL, neck and base) and all come in at or slightly under SAMMI specs. So, I'm really confused.

 

I'm waiting on my order of Big Lubes to try and hopefully they will chamber fine.

 

Anybody have experience with this caliber that can offer suggestions?

[Too Tall Bob]

You might check to be sure your reloads are being sized all the way down. Typical issue with 38-40 dies. Check the resizing die to make sure it is going as far down as possible.  

[Bramble Mountain Buzzard]

The main problem is the dies need to be trimmed 1/32 to 1/16". Sand off the base a bit and they'll be fine. I posted this over on the Rugerforum...

 

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=21534

[Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L]

Bob,

I set the die per instructions, ie. contact the shell holder plus a quarter of a turn to ensure cam over. I also reset the die with about a half a turn and the problem still exists. Remember, the resized case chambers freely, it's when the bullet from the reloads is seated, they case won't chamber.

[Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L]

Buzzard,

Why do my sized cases chamber freely? It's only when the reloaded bullets are seated that they won't chamber. And remember, the reloads won't chamber freely either, so I'm thinking the bullets are suspect.

[Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L]

Are you roll crimping or taper crimping the bullet? If you are roll crimping you could be getting a slight bulge at the crimp area. Taper crimping, you might not the taper crimping set right. Not enough crimp.

These kinda problems are almost always in the die set up.

Do you have a cartridge gauge? I would consider this a must have for loading bottle neck cartridges.

[Rye Miles #13621]

Wyatt, the only thing that works for me is resizing the loaded rounds through a sizing die (with the primer pin removed of course) I also shoot .44-40 in my revolvers and maybe 3 out of 10 won't chamber. I know alot of people will say this is not good but I know several shooters that do this with .38-40 and .44-40. After much time fussing around trying to get the dies set right etc. etc. I found this works great for me!

[Flying W Ramrod]

Are you using the RCBS dies in a Dillon?  If so, the Dillon shell plate is too thick to proper size the shoulders and base of the brass.

Grind off about 5/100s off the bottom off your RCBS deprime/size die. Clean the inside of the base where the sharp edges from grinding are, and try again. Keep at this until the rounds load and eject properly. Also, invest in a Lee Factory Crimp die. You'll not be sorry.

Had this problem with my '73 38-40, by cimmaron. Once I had the die cut down to fit the Dillon shell plate, all went well.

 

Learned this from Boothill Bandit and Ol #4, the hard way. At Winter Range with wrongly sized ammo. What a debacle.

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

What dia are your bullets. Measure them-Don't trust what's on the box.

What type of crimp?

What press are you loading on.

Can you post pictures of your reloaded rounds?

 

OLG

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

The only time I had a similar problem was with 32 40s.  Commercial ammo worked fine, but reloads would not chamber.  Turned out that I was roll crimping the cases too much.  I put the loaded rounds through the decapping die (without the pin) and necked down only the crimp and they chambered fine. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

The boxes of factory and reloads that were available with the rifle gives you a strong hint that the previous owner found the same problem and gave up on the rifle. This is an easily fixed problem, but not if you refuse to make a few simple measurements to pin down the real cause.

Mike the outside diameter of the sized case, the factory load that chambers well, and the reloads which don't chamber well. If the reloads are fatter than the factory, that's at least a contributing cause. 

Then mike the area right where you are crimping the loads.   If that is LARGER than the rest of the neck, you have your dies adjusted so that the crimp bulges the neck, which as Tex Jones mentioned above, may be the entire problem.  Be certain you are not setting the bullet slightly too deep, where the mouth of the neck jams into the land on the slug above the crimp groove.  That condition leaves no where for the neck to go but to bulge out.  There should be a thousandths or 2 of space between the mouth of the case and the land that is above the crimp groove.  Crimp has to be applied so the crimp is NEVER a larger diameter than the rest of the neck!

But, There's a good chance you have a rifle with a really tight neck.   To prove that, a chamber cast with CerroSafe would let you check it accurately.

A tight neck can be fixed with a fresh, sharp finishing chamber reamer used to lightly clean up the chamber and then a little careful polishing. 

Then, check the case shoulder being down far enough on the cases that are stubborn.   Take a black sharpie or some DyeChem machinist's layout fluid and paint the case in the shoulder area.  Let dry a little.  Try chambering again.  Look for rubs and scrapes in the color right on the angle of the shoulder of the 38-40.   If that is scraping, you are not setting then shoulder down far enough with your sizing die - and the die base can be trimmed (as mentioned above) to set the shoulder down farther.

The mystery of chambering problems can VERY often be solved with a little thought, a good caliper set, and a sharpie pen.

Good luck, GJ

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

IF- you don't already-Seat and crimp in 2 separate operations.

It sound to me, like you may have a bulge/ridge near the case-mouth from the crimp that is causing your chambering issues you refer to.

LG

[Guest Grass Range #51406]

Rye nailed it

[Duffield, SASS #23454]

Quote

 

Measure the diameter of the case neck over the bullet of the factory rounds that chamber freely.

Then measure the diameter of the case neck over the bullet of the reloads that will not chamber freely.

Some brands of brass is thicker than other brands of brass which can cause this problem.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

If you have a problem which you think you are solving with running loaded rounds through the sizer die, you will usually get MUCH better results with no damage to the bullet by just getting a Redding Profile Crimp Die.  This die in .38-40 and 44-40, does a really good job crimping and NOT bulging the case neck, because it is designed to fully support the case neck as the crimp is applied.  

I had problems with a small fraction of .44-40 loads fail to chamber in early batches I loaded for that caliber.  Changing from a standard (roll) crimp die to the Redding (roll) Profile Crimp Die took care of 100% of those problems.

 

These bottleneck cases have thinner necks than ANY other cartridge you have ever loaded before. It is MUCH easier to bulge the case neck.  You have to check a few as you load, with a caliper, to make sure you are not bulging the neck.   If you are, then the Redding PCD is a great way to go (and it is more effective than the cheaper Lee Factory Crimp Die for these bottleneck cases - yep, I tried that too).

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

I have never had to run my 44-40 cases through the sizing die again to make them work. I have had to be careful with my crimping, and also run only the thinner Winchester brass if I wanted to run the proper .429 bullets. My cartridges run correctly through the 5 rifles and 4 sets of pistols that myself, wife and kids shoot. It isn't rocket science, but you do have to be extra careful with the bottlenecks as the brass is more easily damaged, plus the chambers tend to be cut small, compared to 45 Colt guns. Especially with Uberti pistols.

[Joe LaFives #5481]

And as an aside the Hornady 38-40 dies work really well and don't have to shave the bottom if you use a Dillion

[Bugler]

My Redding dies for my 44-40 have NEVER caused an issue of any kind...and they are in a Dillon 550b....just had to learn to slow things down a bit and make sure that the casing were going straight into the die body.....I've loaded  and fired many thousands of them.

Bugler

 

PS. Garrison Joe's comments are spot on!

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

38-40 is my preferred cartridge but early on I found that indeed I had to take a small amount off the bottom of my sizing dies to set the shoulders back properly. Before I did that the reloads got to where they would not seat in the revolver cylinder. No problems after modifying the die.

I also had an 1866 carbine that had an issue with the rounds not seating easily in the chamber and it took an extra small force when closing the lever. Found out there was a run on 1866 carbines that was imported with slightly short chambers so I had Cowboys & Indians redo the chamber and it now works flawlessly.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

4 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

The boxes of factory and reloads that were available with the rifle gives you a strong hint that the previous owner found the same problem and gave up on the rifle. This is an easily fixed problem, but not if you refuse to make a few simple measurements to pin down the real cause.

Mike the outside diameter of the sized case, the factory load that chambers well, and the reloads which don't chamber well. If the reloads are fatter than the factory, that's at least a contributing cause. 

Then mike the area right where you are crimping the loads.   If that is LARGER than the rest of the neck, you have your dies adjusted so that the crimp bulges the neck, which as Tex Jones mentioned above, may be the entire problem.  Be certain you are not setting the bullet slightly too deep, where the mouth of the neck jams into the land on the slug above the crimp groove.  That condition leaves no where for the neck to go but to bulge out.  There should be a thousandths or 2 of space between the mouth of the case and the land that is above the crimp groove.  Crimp has to be applied so the crimp is NEVER a larger diameter than the rest of the neck!

But, There's a good chance you have a rifle with a really tight neck.   To prove that, a chamber cast with CerroSafe would let you check it accurately.

A tight neck can be fixed with a fresh, sharp finishing chamber reamer used to lightly clean up the chamber and then a little careful polishing. 

Then, check the case shoulder being down far enough on the cases that are stubborn.   Take a black sharpie or some DyeChem machinist's layout fluid and paint the case in the shoulder area.  Let dry a little.  Try chambering again.  Look for rubs and scrapes in the color right on the angle of the shoulder of the 38-40.   If that is scraping, you are not setting then shoulder down far enough with your sizing die - and the die base can be trimmed (as mentioned above) to set the shoulder down farther.

The mystery of chambering problems can VERY often be solved with a little thought, a good caliper set, and a sharpie pen.

Good luck, GJ

 

I have not as of yet had any issues loading 38-40, but I still learned a whole lot from reading this comment. Thanks for posting it GJ. Much appreciated.

[Earl Brasse, SASS #3562]

I have had to correct the same issue on five 38-40 rifles/carbines.

Short chamber in the area of the bullet "lead-in' to the rifling.

Original bullets design had a taper starting right at the edge of the case mouth.  (example Lyman 40143 ) These were crimped over the ogive on top of a full case of blackpowder.

This bullet/powder combination works fine.

The problem comes with what has become "standard" (Magma) bullet design.Note how the bullet how the bullet continues to be fullsized above the crimp groove.

This is the part that "sticks" when trying to chamber a loaded round.

I was told by Uberti that everything was "within spec.".  I had a large pile of Magma style bullets, so I had the chambers "touched-up" solving the issue.

As others have mentioned, there are "issues" with reloading 38-40 Win. , but this is why even a "good cartridge" still won't chamber.

 

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

My RCBS Cowboy dies work just great with-out grinding , Just be careful not to Over Crimp as this can cause chambering problems ...

These Cowboy dies are the best made RCBS dies I have ever seen , usually I avoid RCBS dies as almost every other die maker makes better dies ... I really like Hornady  dies and Redding as well ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Thunder Creek Kid]

7 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Wyatt, the only thing that works for me is resizing the loaded rounds through a sizing die (with the primer pin removed of course) I also shoot .44-40 in my revolvers and maybe 3 out of 10 won't chamber. I know alot of people will say this is not good but I know several shooters that do this with .38-40 and .44-40. After much time fussing around trying to get the dies set right etc. etc. I found this works great for me!

This works for me too.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

A chamber cast can also capture the leade area ahead of the chamber, allowing you to verify or refute the jamming of "fat" bullet noses into the leade and rifling.

But then again, careful eyeballing of the slugs on rounds you tried to chamber, then extracted, can give some of the same clues - if rifling is cutting up spots on the bullet ahead of the crimp, you have a tight leade that needs to be relieved with a reamer.

Good luck, GJ

[Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L]

Gentlemen, thank you all for your outstanding assistance. Just to answer a few of your questions, I'm resizing on an RCBS single stage press. The case mouth belling, bullet seating and Lee Factory crimp die are set in a Lee four hole Turret press. I've measured the pulled bullets, the lead ones come at .400 to .401, the Winchester JSP comes in at .3995. Remember, a re-sized case chambers freely, plops right in, so I don't think it's a shoulder issue. It's only when I seat the lead bullet that the case won't chamber. I insert it by hand and can feel it stop just at the extractor groove. That's how short it is from chambering. I've measured the case neck at the crimp, just above the shoulder, the base just above the extractor groove and the OAL. Every measurement comes in at spec or even a little under. I've applied a light crimp and a heavy crimp with the Lee factory crimp die and I've applied a light roll crimp using the RCBS die. So I don't think I'm causing a bulge at the neck.

I blackened a test round but did not see any scrape marks, save for a little on the bullet itself. I'm now pretty sure it is a bullet issue, as stated above by Earl Brasse. Comparing the JSP profile with the lead bullets, I can see how the JSP's taper down more right above the crimp groove. The lead has a fuller profile and I think that is what is contacting the lands. When I chamber the round I can tap on it a little and it sticks in the chamber. I think this is caused by the bullet contacting the rifling. If the Big Lubes have more of a taper in the profile I should be good to go. If not, then it's off to see Jim Bowie at the C&L Store, thankfully I only live about 45 minutes away.

Again, thanks for all the help and suggestions.

Wyatt

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

My reloads worked in my 1873 rifle, short rifle and carbine. It was my 1866 carbine that had the problem. Jim Bowie reamed the chamber in my 38-40 1866 carbine and it's worked great ever since. Call him!

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Once again, let's reiterate:

Quote

When I chamber the round I can tap on it a little and it sticks in the chamber. I think this is caused by the bullet contacting the rifling.

Why not take a look at the nose of the slug after tapping one of these sticky rounds into the chamber, and look for rifling marks or other deformation of the bullet nose?  Then you will know for sure that cleaning up the leade area in the barrel throat will fix the problem.

 

It is a dangerous condition having a rifle with a tight throat like that, where the bullet jams into the rifling while chambering.  Sooner or later, that rifle will grab a slug tightly enough to pull it out of a loaded round that you eject (like when you jack out a round while going real fast).  That is either going to jam the next round so it won't chamber, or EVEN WORSE, the slug may push into the barrel far enough to let another loaded round chamber!  Pull the trigger on that and you will have a blown up rifle.   

Good luck, GJ

[Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L]

Just a quick update. I seated and crimped another bullet using the Lee Factory crimp die. As expected, it would not chamber fully. So I pressed on it hard enough and it went in fully, but was stuck so I had to use a small screwdriver to pry it out. Couldn't really see any detectable marks from the rifling. I then took my box cutter and shaved a little off the bullet from the case to the flat point to give it a little more tapered profile.

Guess what? It plopped right in with no effort. Definitely the fat bullet profile is the culprit. As stated above, I hope the Big lubes have enough taper, if not it's the C&L Store.

 

Wyatt

 

ETA: I guess I'll be putting my bullet puller to work taking apart all those commercial reloads. There's only 95 of them, so shouldn't take too long.

I'll definitely go see Jim Bowie anyway to have the throat cleaned up.

[SlicLee SASS #16638 Life]

You all bought the wrong die set

I use 38/40 20 years at least with RCBS lead cowboy die set. 

The RCBS regular die set is for rifle only, using a jacketed bullet such as a commercial round.  

 

[Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L]

Hey SlicLee, I am using the RCBS Cowboy dies.

[Earl Brasse, SASS #3562]

Wyatt,

If you have a 38-40 Win revolver, you might want to see if they will chamber & then just use the 95 as revolver only rounds to save the pulling time.

If I remember right Jim made a special cutter so he can do the recutting without pulling the barrel. Lucky you live close.

Garrison Joe is right as far as I'm concerned, it's a safety issue not being cut.  Most guns will outlive their owners, so now is a good time to prevent future problems.

[Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L]

Earl,

Don't have revolvers in this caliber, just this one rifle right now. Always just shot .45 in everything, but the guy made me such a great deal on this when I came into the gun shop looking for a 73 carbine. May go to a set of sixguns if I get enthused enough with the 38-40 shooting BP.

Anyway, just got off the phone with Jim Bowie, I'll be taking the rifle in on Monday. Said he'd have to remove the barrel, so may not have that tool you're talking about, but I will ask him. You guys are right that the chamber recut is the correct fix and not just trying to use a specific bullet profile. And, then I can just shoot up these reloads and reload the brass with BP!

 

Thanks again to all.

 

Wyatt

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Measure the bullet in front of the crimp groove, before and after loading. Any difference?

Also-load 2-3 rnds with the bullet seated deeper about .030-.040.

OLG

[Earl Brasse, SASS #3562]

Wyatt, while Jim has it you might want to have him check the headspace & timing; I've had some that had pretty loose headspace (bought it new '73) & several with timing issues.

If you can check/work on it yourself, great, if not, Jim does great work.

When you start shooting Black (or Sub) in 38-40 Win you will be amazed at how clean you action will stay.

It's a slippery slope, you will start looking at pistols & then develop an urgent "need" for a pair. lol

Welcome to the wild, wonderful world of Winchester bottleneck shooters.

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

The rifle not chambering factory rounds is a telling factor.  Taking it to Jim Bowie to be reamed is the answer.  I had a 38-40 with a short cut chamber that actually left marks on the case after it was forced in.  This is a common malady with this caliber from Italy.   Bullet profiles for the 38WCF shouldn't be a limiting factor.  Jim fixed me up and it has been no problem since.  

Now my revolvers were a different story where the shoulders were not set back far enough to chamber.  No I did not grind the sizing die nor did I recut the chambers because both of my rifles are running the rounds fine.  Rowdy Yates made me a shouldering die that is the last process I do when reloading.  It sets the shoulder back just a bit to chamber properly every time.

You'll be running right in no time and will fall in love with the caliber.