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Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

A TO's nightmare

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imagine this,,,,, first stage of a major match, you have yet to shoot but are TOing,,, shooter drops empty pistol for a sdq,,,

 

next shooter re-stages his rifle vertically poorly and you by instinct catch it as it has broken the 170 by 45 degrees,,, shooter is heading down range with sg when you say something like, your done,,,,, come back,,, shooter spins around with sg sweeping everyone,,, second sdq = mdq....

 

 

now, try to go shoot!! ugh!!!

 

and don't even try to quibble about saying so and so until it happens to you as a TO.... I wish I could always say the perfect thing too!!

 

 

no this is not a made up deal, either...

 

btw, then two stages later call a sdq for a staged cocked rifle,,,, had to make all three calls, well 4 sort of,,,

 

then next stage, and fortuantely I wasn't TOing, another shooter drops another empty pistol.... yes 3 sdq's and a mdq in 4 stages

 

but, we made it through the rest of the match with no furthers dqs,,,,,soooo happily!!!

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none were that I know of...

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And you were yet to shoot...... Good finish with all this on your brain.

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WOW!! :o Don't know what to say except WOW!! :wacko: I'd have to take a short walk before loading up to unscramble my brain after that. :unsure: TOing can be very rewarding at times, like saving a new shooter for their first clean match. And it can be frustrating when having to give out earned penalties, especially safety penalties for things easily preventable. You do the best you can, then go load up......next shooter ;) Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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Such is the life of a TO.......

 

I had a lady shoot the loading table on a stage. Two shooters later her husband dropped an empty rifle when re-staging it.

 

Sometimes it is helpful if you just walk away from the bay and contemplate what a lovely day it is to be alive.

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Tough start to a match Cheyenne.

 

Having received a SDQ myself at a 2 day match (hammer back on an empty, holstered revolver), I can tell you that it probably bothered the TO as much as it did me. When the dust settled, he came over and apologized for having to make the call. That was a nice gesture. I'm not sure if I pulled it off completely, but I tried to assure him that it was the only thing that he could do and then went about the rest of the match continuing to chip in as needed and keeping a good attitude. Even though my match scores were toast, I ended up having a great time (as usual). After all, it's a game we play. We should all be grateful that we haven't hurt anyone when we pull a bone head move and can laugh about it later.

 

I hope most shooters at least try to keep it real and let the guys that had to make the call get on with their day.

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Tough start to a match Cheyenne.

 

Having received a SDQ myself at a 2 day match (hammer back on an empty, holstered revolver), I can tell you that it probably bothered the TO as much as it did me. When the dust settled, he came over and apologized for having to make the call. That was a nice gesture. I'm not sure if I pulled it off completely, but I tried to assure him that it was the only thing that he could do and then went about the rest of the match continuing to chip in as needed and keeping a good attitude. Even though my match scores were toast, I ended up having a great time (as usual). After all, it's a game we play. We should all be grateful that we haven't hurt anyone when we pull a bone head move and can laugh about it later.

 

I hope most shooters at least try to keep it real and let the guys that had to make the call get on with their day.

they all actually really felt sorry for me!!!

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they all actually really felt sorry for me!!!

 

We all do CC, that's cuz yer momma dresses ya funny :D

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10 years ago at a state match, I was the TO and while I was watching the next shooter stage his guns, my wife who was two shooters back at the loading table, accidentally dropped a loaded pistol while she was holstering it. Obviously I had to MDQ her. If that wasn't bad enough, later on that same day, another shooter experienced a rifle jam and while trying work the lever, accidentally pressed the trigger sending a round through the stage prop in front of him impacting the ground less than five feet from where he stood. Now I had a second MDQ that I had to impose. Needless to say, that evening I investigated the magical attributes of Buffalo Trace Bourbon.

 

~:Wylie:~

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Now no one will want to to TO for them!!

 

Do you think it's your flashy outfits? :D :D :D

 

That is sure a bummer. And as you said the TO often feels as bad or worse than the person who made the error. Much harder to then concentrate on your own shooting and fun.

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You must be bad luck..ShyAnnie..... :lol::lol::lol:

 

I agree with Jefro. That is a tough way to start a match. I feel for ya.

 

 

..........Widder

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The dropped gun or hammer back are easy, no real question about it. breaking the 170 is the tough one. It usually only happens for a second or 2, and is usually "just barely" making it a subjective call.

 

I once had a P called on my by a spotter for a foot fault, I might have had 1/16th of an inch of my little toe in the wrong spot. It was certainly no advantage. TO went along with the call, to this day it still rankles a little!

 

I ceretaily appreciate the guys and gals who are willing to step up, especially at a big match, and serve as TO/Posse Marshall.

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Two in one day is just a lot. Also at a major match had to sdq one of the nicest people you'll ever meet. Felt horrible, but it was what it was.

 

Taking a short walk is sometimes necessary.

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I've only witnessed a couple of SDQs and one MDQ. The SDQ was performed by the match director. The MDQ was earned by a territorial governor. He gave himself the MDQ when his hand lost it's grip due to a motor function failure.

 

New guys are generally watched pretty closely and given critical instructions. But I see plenty of "old" guys get pretty casual with their gun handling.

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I feel your pain Pretty Boy, maybe not as much but still feel it for you,at a state match I had two shooters miss their holster with an empty pistol. They were following each other in shooting order. Two SDQ's, two shooters. Sure does put a damper on things. To add insult to injury one of them did the same thing on the last stage of the match and got the MDQ.

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Must have been a jinxed posse. My first wr was like that remember cc? First stage I hit an upright with the barrel of my empty SxS and it went flying. Still had a great time except for the last day of the match when I had to shoot in ankle to knee deep water. Then once we get thru they throw out my best four stages that was 2006 as I recall

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We all do CC, that's cuz yer momma dresses ya funny :D

 

That was hilarious.... :lol:

 

That is surely a rough start- and one campfire story that you don't want to collect. Hat's off to ya.

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Wasn't a TO, but at Jailbreak one year....

Guy put a round over the berm-MDQ

Same stage- (start facing up range)- his wife draws and cocks her pistol, then turns,( sweeping my wife at the loading table)-MDQ(TO saw and called) THEN the husband went ballistic on MY wife saying it was HER fault! She was in tears.

I was picking up brass at the time and didn't see all this, but found my wife crying. Heard the story and went looking for him. Fortunately for him he was gone by this time.

Quite a match.

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next shooter re-stages his rifle vertically poorly and you by instinct catch it as it has broken the 170 by 45 degrees,,, shooter is heading down range with sg when you say something like, your done,,,,, come back,,, shooter spins around with sg sweeping everyone,,, second sdq = mdq....

 

Why did you stop him in the middle of stage? It was not a safety issue if the gun was empty.

 

I would be very P.O.'d for stopping me in the middle of the stage if the gun was empty. It seems it would actually be safer to let the shooter finish the stage so all of his/her guns are empty before going to the unloading table.

 

I'll take my medience but don't compound the problem.

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Why did you stop him in the middle of stage? It was not a safety issue if the gun was empty.

 

I would be very P.O.'d for stopping me in the middle of the stage if the gun was empty. It seems it would actually be safer to let the shooter finish the stage so all of his/her guns are empty before going to the unloading table.

 

I'll take my medience but don't compound the problem.

 

RO II Pg 9

 

BREAKING THE 170º SAFETY RULE
A CRO/TO/Spotter shall make an immediate "Cease-Fire" call if any firearm breaks the 170º safety rule. This call will result in a Stage or Match Disqualification to the shooter. The Chief Range Officer shall make a good faith effort to prevent the shooter from breaking the safety rule by verbal command or physical contact, if necessary.
It is also necessary to note that during the course of fire, the shooter must be given the ability to draw and holster revolvers from approved/legal holsters and the ability to retrieve and return vertically staged double-barreled shotguns without penalty.
Seems clear to me. I would be careful with your temper at that point.

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Well I would have to say that all the above happens is a very Meloncholy Situation!

 

And amen to that Geeeez!

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You needed a day like the movie "Ground Hog Day." where you could start the day all over again................. Many years ago at Michigans Range War, a shooter sponsored a stage, while he was shooting the first stage, he dropped his loaded pistol and received a MDQ...ouch!!

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BREAKING THE 170º SAFETY RULE

 

A CRO/TO/Spotter shall make an immediate "Cease-Fire" call if any firearm breaks the 170º safety rule. This call will result in a Stage or Match Disqualification to the shooter. The Chief Range Officer shall make a good faith effort to prevent the shooter from breaking the safety rule by verbal command or physical contact, if necessary.

 

 

Except the TO did not say "CEASE FIRE."

 

 

 

next shooter re-stages his rifle vertically poorly and you by instinct catch it as it has broken the 170 by 45 degrees,,, shooter is heading down range with sg when you say something like, your done,,,,, come back,,, shooter spins around with sg sweeping everyone,,, second sdq = mdq....

 

Reread the O.P.’s original post. He said to the shooter “something like your done,,,,, come back,,,"

 

The T.O. did not give the proper range command creating confusion on the part of the shooter. The shooter could have thought the T.O. was telling him there were no more targets to shoot in the stage.

 

While the T.O. intended to stop the shooter per the rules he did not give the proper command of "CEASE FIRE."

 

MDQ was proper.

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again,,,, in the heat of the moment,,, yes, I should have just said stop... or cease fire, but who's to say he wudn't have spun around anyway? on the shooter NOT to break the safety rules

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really? standing there holding a rifle that wud have hit the floor, muzzle first pointed at the crowd? you're gonna get upset because I stopped you instead of catching your rifle? is it the shooter's responsilbility to not sweep the crowd with shotgun as he moves? I'd like to see how you would actually handle that situation!!!

 

I would have handled the situation by giving the proper range command of "CEASE FIRE!" when the shooter started downrange after his rifle broke the 170.

 

 

 

again,,,, in the heat of the moment,,, yes, I should have just said stop... or cease fire, but who's to say he wudn't have spun around anyway? on the shooter NOT to break the safety rules

 

I am sure you were trying to follow the rules. The problem is with the English language words have often have specific meaning. Speaking for myself I occasionally screw up stages with a procedural so saying "come back" to me would mean I missed shooting the stage in the proper order and need go back and finish shooting my guns in the proper order.

 

Anyway as I would have being upset over endangering the crowd I would have picked up my guns, packed up and give a lot of thought as to whether I should be participating in matches.

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maybe,,, did it happen to you? I've never heard that command given in CAS,, but then I've only TOed for 16 years

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Why did you stop him in the middle of stage? It was not a safety issue if the gun was empty.

 

I would be very P.O.'d for stopping me in the middle of the stage if the gun was empty. It seems it would actually be safer to let the shooter finish the stage so all of his/her guns are empty before going to the unloading table.

 

I'll take my medience but don't compound the problem.

 

That's not what you said. Now you are trying (poorly I might add) to divert your comments back to blaming the TO

 

 

 

PS: shooter was not actively shooting, in transition

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Did what happen to me?

 

I have heard the command "CEASE FIRE" given on many occasions. The most common reason is a squib load. Other times that come to mind is when the range caught fire from blackpowder shooters, a dog ran out onto the range, shooter having a medical condition, shooter injured by tripping and falling.

 

I am not bashing you. I can tell you are concerned about shooter and bystanders safety. I am only putting out how one shooter (and possibility the ONLY shooter) could get confused by the command 'Come Back."

 

Sweeping the crowd was on the shooter. If I pulled a bonehead stunt like that I would most likely give up shooting in matches altogether.

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That's not what you said. Now you are trying (poorly I might add) to divert your comments back to blaming the TO

 

I am not blaming the TO. The rule book states that the TO is held harmless by giving wrong commands.

 

As I said I am probably the only shooter in SASS that the words "Come Back" and "Cease Fire" have two very different meanings.

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I have used "Stop!", "Hold it!", "Hold up!", "Woah!", and on occasion, physically restrained a shooter as needed to bring them to a stop for a safety issue or to prevent dangerous situation when acting as TO/RO.

 

I personally have received two MDQs and a few SDQs over my 14+ years as a shooter. The first MDQ was for an AD that hit within 5' of the shooting position and it also hit my shotgun. I called that one on myself because the TO was not in position to see the incident. The other was for a shot over the berm. I called that one too, just as the TO was about to. The SDQs have long since faded from memory. I deserved all but one and I even accepted it gracefully.

 

In NONE of these instances did the TO use the term "Cease Fire!", nor have I EVER heard that phrase used to halt a shooter. I'm sure I'd recognize that call, but I would be more likely to expect it as a range command used to get a cold range situation!!

 

The object of any command to stop a shooter is to do just that! This ain't English class we're attending!! Do what it takes to prevent an unsafe situation and to follow the rules. The shooter is, in the end, responsible for his/her actions and all you can do is do your job and move on!

 

CC did his job! He can run a timer for me!!

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BTW,,,, both shooters felt badly of course.... more so than me of course!! one was an experienced shooter with his first sdq,, the latter a newer shooter,,,

 

this wasn't in any means a way of bashing them, or seekng sympathy, a rough learning experience for the newer shooter too..

 

and yes,,, I wish I cud always say the perfect thing,,,, I work very hard being the best TO that I can,,, and take giving penalties with dislike,,, but it's a part of the job,,,, like as a spotter, calling a miss on the last shot to ruin a clean match.

 

my apologies to the two shooters involved for this turning into a bashing of them..

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The nice thing about the English language is there's many words to choose from that mean the same thing! I've never heard "Cease fire" in 20 yrs of shooting! Stop, Whoa, put the guns down, you're done etc. all mean the same.

 

Cheyenne might wear funny clothes :lol: but he's a good TO, he's timed me several times and he's helpful and knows what he's doing. It's all on the shooter to follow the rules.

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First and foremost, the shooter is responsible to maintain muzzle control. Period. I don't care what words were used, or not used, or if the Swedish bikini team stopped by to do a little dance.

 

Second, as has been already cited, the rules are pretty clear, once the SDQ happens, the shooters stage is over. Further, the fact that the TO was unable to keep within a proper distance due to mitigating the situation that warranted the SDQ would also indicate that the shooter needs to stop. That said I have let a shooter finish the next gun before stopping them as it was already out and cocked and I was at their shoulder to supervise them.

 

Lastly, for now anyway, the exact verbiage used - in my opinion, 'cease fire' is a more range wide command, especially on a common firing line setup. It is used not only to stop the closest shooter, but also everyone else within earshot. If I am at the loading table and hear 'cease fire' I will put guns on the table, hands in the air, and step back.

 

CC can run the clock for me anytime, though if I know he's gonna be, I'd probably wear sunglasses so I don't get blinded by the glare off all his bling and championship buckles.

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Thank you for stepping up to be a TO at a major match. Impossible to catch everything that happens. Appreciate your hard work.

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