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OPEN APOLOGY to the SASS WIRE re: SHOOTERS HANDBOOK


Father Kit Cool Gun Garth

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My fellow SASS Members:

 

I may have inadvertently started a range war when I began re-reading the SASS Shooters Handbook (version 21.8 – February 1, 2016) and posting questions in order to clarify what I was reading. That was never my intention and I wanted to opening apologize to everyone if I came across wrong.

 

I read the SASS WIRE on a regular basis and I’m awed by the amount of knowledge and information all you seasoned cowboys have at your fingertips and are willing to impart on us newbies. Someday I want to be as knowledgeable as you to be capable of passing that knowledge on to the next wave of CAS/SASS newcomers.

 

I therefore thought it might be appropriate to provide a little background on myself and why I post to the SASS WIRE thread in the first place. My hope is that future threads that I post could be viewed within these contexts.

 

Some people are methodical in their approach to new areas of interest, and I am such a person. I am not your typical cowboy, although I grew up, like many of you, dressing up and playing Cowboys and Indians with the other kids, I grew up to become a more analytical person. My fields of experience are in Accounting, Auditing, Financial Analysis and working in a Law Firm. I am currently employed full time with the County in the Budget Division. My wife and I are Professional Guardians and in charge of multiple wards. As you can easily guess, I have very little free time to allocate to my new found hobby. This might answer the issue some have raised as to why it’s been so long since I have begun to shoot in a match. With an ailing father-in-law in the Florida panhandle, who lost his wife last year and our commitment to take our RV and stay with him every few weeks, only adds to my delay in getting started. Weekends become precious.

 

I first heard of Cowboy Action Shooting from a SASS Mounted Cowboy that worked for the County too. Being of an analytical mind, I began my research using the Internet. Eventually, I went to our local club on match day and spent the entire day watching the shooters, taking pictures, making notes, and talking with the cowboys themselves. I’ve attended several subsequent matches and participated in setting up the stages and helping with the “chores”. (See my thread entitled “New Shooters: Heed Mother’s Advice” posted July 19, 2016)

 

During all this time, continued to attend a match or two, make inquiries on the SASS WIRE and continue my extensive research on the firearms and equipment I wished to purchase to shoot Cowboy Action Shooting, and with the help of everyone on the SASS WIRE, I have just recently accomplished that task after having saved enough money to purchase it all. This might answer why some have noticed I have been posting threads on the WIRE for some time now.

 

My approach to Cowboy Action Shooting and the SASS community is purely from an outsider’s viewpoint, and although I have already made the commitment to shoot CAS, I wanted to treat my adventure into the realm of CAS with a fresh perspective, that from a potential new member of SASS.

 

There are several reasons to post to the SASS WIRE and my threads were designed to provide assistance to new shooters such as myself. I fully understand that almost every CAS topic has at some time in the past been fully explored. The database of knowledge that can be obtained is extensive, and I try to research it before posting a new thread.

 

I chose topics that a new shooter would like to know such as:

 

Opinions on Hearing Protection Options (809 views)

Lever Action Rifle: Loading Gate or Tubular (2,805 views)

Best Shotgun Shell for SxS (1,533 views)

Pros and Cons of the Henry Big Boy rifles (3,000 views)

Purchase and Proper Fit for New Holster (913 views)

Do you mark your brass (1,465 views)

Let’s talk about the Revolvers to avoid (1,751 views)

 

When I first started reading the SASS WIRE, I found that Abbreviations and Acronyms were being used extensively and therefore made the suggestion to Allie Mo to possibly start a Pinned List of these to assist those unfamiliar with them (Thanks Allie!). To date it has been viewed 3,254 times, and even now, I use it, and make suggestions for new additions as I run across them.

 

With all this as a backdrop, I’d like to clarify my most recent threads concerning the Shooters Handbook.

 

The SASS Shooters Handbook, in my opinion, can be viewed as (1) a reference guide for seasoned shooters and (2) a training/learning manual for new shooters. It is this later purpose that I was re-reading the handbook from a beginner's point of view, and addressing those issues that may be difficult for them to comprehend. These recent threads were merely meant to be food for thought as to their intended meaning.

 

How many times have you seen a response in a thread discussing a reference to the Shooters Handbook starting with, “in my opinion” or “what they meant to say”, or “it is implied that”. It would seem to suggest that the reference is not clear, if that many variations are offered? Rules should be clearly understood.

 

Finally, I wish to again, express my sincere apologies.

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No matter how detailed a document, there will always be things in it that are confusing, if you don't have some kind of background in the subject matter, and there is no way to write a document that covers every possible nuance and situation, hence the continuing What's The Call (WTC) threads. In my former life, I wrote a lot of technical manuals for the equipment I designed. Trust me, it's just not possible to cover every possibility and answer every question in print, ever!

 

As has been stated in a few other threads, just go out to a match or two and hang out with the folks. Watch what they are doing, and ask them your questions. A two minute face to face discussion will save hours of discussion on the wire, and you will actually get the answer you seek, 9 times out of 10 anyway. The only caveat I will suggest to you is wait until AFTER someone shoots the stage before you talk to them. That way you won't disrupt their concentration. Talk to them after they put their guns back in their cart so they have time to complete the shooting portion of the stage and guns are safely stored. Most folks are more than happy to answer questions at that point.

 

I see by your posting that you are in Taveres, Florida. If you lived up around Maryland, I would suggest that you attend one of Chuckaroo's New Shooter Clinics. It gives a good overall introduction to the game, hits the high points in the shooters books, and introduces you to the types of firearms in use. At the end of the classroom portion, we take you down to the range and let you shoot a stage or two under the watchful eyes of a couple of ROs. Well worth the $5.00! Maybe someone down there does something similar.

 

However, you have two great opportunities to go and see matches within the next couple of weeks. Dark Day on the Santa Fe, the South East Territorial Black Powder Championship will be in Fort White on 03/11/17 and the Florida State Championship, Ides of March, is being held on the 16th( side matches) and the 17th/18th for the main match, right in Taveres. Head on over to one, or both, and check them out. There will be lots of shooters from the best of the best, all the way down to yours truly who is coming down all the way from Maryland just to attend these two matches.

 

Come on out, you won't be disappointed.

 

Dogmeat Dad

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You're ok. Just go at it to meet new folks and have fun. I have shot for a few years, can't get out as often as I would like, but I cherish the people I know from this sport and approach it as mere fun and shoot whatever I want when I can and to hell with opinions about how off my gear is.

 

If you're into speed, do what those guys do, into historically themed fun do what those guys do. Just enjoy it.

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You don't owe anyone an apology. If anything a few people owe you one.

+!

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However, you have two great opportunities to go and see matches within the next couple of weeks. Dark Day on the Santa Fe, the South East Territorial Black Powder Championship will be in Fort White on 03/11/17 and the Florida State Championship, Ides of March, is being held on the 16th( side matches) and the 17th/18th for the main match, right in Taveres. Head on over to one, or both, and check them out. There will be lots of shooters from the best of the best, all the way down to yours truly who is coming down all the way from Maryland just to attend these two matches.

 

Come on out, you won't be disappointed.

 

 

 

Dogmeat Dad:

I plan to attend the Ides of March, the 18th of March and will look for you.

Thank you for the uplifting response.

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I'll be there with my wife Lil Feathers. Won't be shooting on Side Match day, but will be there to check-in. It's my first time at the Ides, but most matches post a posse list so you will be able to locate me there and figure out which posse we are on. I'll be the guy shooing Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter frantically trying to see the targets through all of the smoke!

 

5smoke.jpg

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Dogmeat Dad:

Just looked at the Roster print-out for the Ides of March Match and whoa, there you and Lil Feathers are!

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Hear, hear Dogmeat! Very well said, and I don't know that I could agree more. Then again, I live down the street, and I'm about to sign up the Mrs for Chuckaroo's April class! Actually, in the spirit of full disclosure (and maybe a bit of a nudge to the OP), I'm going to sign both of us up! I originally joined SASS about 4-5 years ago, and shot with a different group (Annapolis). Since it's been a while, I moved over closer to Damascus, and those folks @ Damascus run FAST, I see no harm in joining the wife for the class. It'll give me a refresher AND make it easier for her to go, given that she is a less seasoned shooter.

 

Cool Gun: The thing to remember is that no one is faulting you for posting on the boards. I would venture a guess that MOST of us have done all of the crazed research that you have. The difference is that we did it WHILE shooting, not in stead of. The best advice I ever got (that I promptly ignored) was to NOT buy any gear until after my first shoot. Hit a shoot. Pards will lend you gear. Then other pards will lend you theirs. Then they will debate the finer points of why each of theirs is better than the other's. You get to sit back, experience it all, and probably get to try everything out. Only after practicing a few times a month, and shooting for a few months in a row, will you really start to understand what works best for you. A lot of really smart folks have debated in those threads you posted, but that doesn't make it right for you. I'm a big fan of the Henry's, but I still set my sights on (and finally got) a Winchester. Don't let the forums serve as a substitute over experience for making decisions.

 

The thing I would suggest is you think about this: I've shot, and went away for a bit when our daughter was born. Then I shot, and went away for a bit after our son. Now I'm back again and raring to go. That's all over a bunch of years, and you still have almost the same post count as I do. In what looks to be 6 months. Without shooting a match. I understand about being excited for something that's just out of reach, but still, folks are eventually going to get frustrated.

 

If life isn't making it the right time for you to go out, that stinks, and I'm sure we can all understand. Heck, I could even see how that would cause a lot of folks (myself included) to dig in even deeper, and get MORE into the research as a substitute for being able to shoot. Completely understandable. I'm just saying you should relax. Don't try to memorize the SH, RO I, and ROII. Hang out on the boards, read, and enjoy the community. You don't have to be salty-sounding and knowledgeable at your first shoot. It's not even a good idea to try to be. Relish being the new guy. Let others show you the ropes. Take the free pass for "almost" breaking the 170 rule. You don't have to go like your rear is on fire, only to have a frustrating first day if it doesn't all work out as you see it in your head.

 

Sorry, this was supposed to be supportive of both your and Dogmeat Dad's post. The other thing I'd offer is that I followed others posts and put together the laser practicing system for winters and when I can't get to the range. Shoot me a PM if interested in more info.

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That was probably the "Who's Comin' List". There will be another at the match that will give your our posse number. The shooters get divided into approximately equal numbers and assigned a "shootin' posse" and a starting bay. Doing that divide is usually one of the last items on the Match Directors to-do list as there will be additions and deletions all the way up to match day and it's an impossible job that no one wants to do twice! A wants to shoot with B, B wants to shoot with C and D, C wants to shoot with E but E doesn't want to shoot with A, and on it goes. Match Directors do their best, but it's just an impossible job.

 

Se you there!

 

DD

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That was probably the "Who's Comin' List". There will be another at the match that will give your our posse number. The shooters get divided into approximately equal numbers and assigned a "shootin' posse" and a starting bay. Doing that divide is usually one of the last items on the Match Directors to-do list as there will be additions and deletions all the way up to match day and it's an impossible job that no one wants to do twice! A wants to shoot with B, B wants to shoot with C and D, C wants to shoot with E but E doesn't want to shoot with A, and on it goes. Match Directors do their best, but it's just an impossible job.

 

Se you there!

 

DD

 

DD:

I think I lost you somewhere in there!! Pulling%20your%20hair%20out_zpsbsk8jxco.:P :P:PLOL.

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If life isn't making it the right time for you to go out, that stinks, and I'm sure we can all understand. Heck, I could even see how that would cause a lot of folks (myself included) to dig in even deeper, and get MORE into the research as a substitute for being able to shoot. Completely understandable.

 

WIllDearborn:

You pegged my frustrations to a tee.

Have you ever considered a side job as a psychiatrist?

 

lucy_zpsitlhsg2v.jpg

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Father Kit, hope to meet you at the Ides next month. Come enjoy the Outlaw Style of shooting.

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We all start somewhere .

I always say the only stupid question .

Is the one you dont ask.

 

Have fun .

Shoot safe .

Enjoy Friends.

Treat others the way you would want to be treated .

But most of all never think you know so much you cant ask a question .

 

Welcome to the dance !

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Hey if you ain't been spanked on the wire you ain't a sass shooter

Rafe

Howdy Garth, no problem and no apology needed.......If they didn't like you they wouldn't say anything ;) The SHB is a guide, mostly about categories and gear and a brief over view of the rules and penalties. Try not to over think it at first, many of your questions can be answered very quickly at the range. The more in depth and definitive clarifications can be found in RO I and RO II. The RO I course is highly recommend for everyone, even if you never plan on being a TO. That and being on range will answer most of your questions. Still ask them here and we will try to make at least three pages out of it :o:lol: . After you have completed RO I and RO II PW will send you a leather bound copy of RO III :huh: ........not :D Good Luck :)

SHB page 1

This Handbook includes the specific rules, regulations, and general guidelines adopted by the Single Action Shooting Society. The SASS Range Operations Basic Course and SASS Range Officer Training Course offer an in-depth interpretation and further clarification of these rules along with applicable penalties.
Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy
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Jefro:

I will definitely refer to my copies of the RO I and RO II in the future, and will try to schedule taking the Range Operations Basic Course if I can get it to fit in what's left of my available time.

As I stated in my thread, I have attended and helped set up stages for our Lake County Pistoleros and ask as many questions as I can and the reason I end up on the SASS WIRE asking more questions, is that I am unable to get to the matches as many times as I would like. They are a fantastic bunch of cowboys.

I also like to have something in writing I can print out and refer to later if need be.

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The biggest reason everyone tells you to shoot a match first and then get into the nitty gritty details is to save you a lot of hair pulling. As to trying to clarify the manual more, well I have seen one of the early manuals and it was a few pages long, despite back then folks were shoot far more complicated stages with really cool things like riding in a wagon, throwing tomahawks, kicking in doors, rolling under a wagon, riding in a moving mining cart while shooting, etc. The manual is way more exhaustive now, as well as the other two (or three) RO manuals. The manuals keep getting bigger and bigger trying to clarify all of the nuances that come up and it seems to me that it just obfuscates the issue even more. Like Dogmeat says, no manual can cover everything. When I say get out there and try shooting, it doesn't have anything to do with me or any of us on the wire. It's because, like the rest of us, I will never forget the joy of that first shoot and how long it took for that smile to leave my face. Keep posting all you like, but do yourself the favor of getting to that match. I can guarantee you at least one thing. You will wish you had gone much earlier. Best of luck to you. Shoot straight if you can, but it doesn't really matter. Most of the targets are bent anyway. Just get out there and shoot. And then start a brand new thread and gives us every single detail you can remember.

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The biggest reason everyone tells you to shoot a match first and then get into the nitty gritty details is to save you a lot of hair pulling. As to trying to clarify the manual more, well I have seen one of the early manuals and it was a few pages long, despite back then folks were shoot far more complicated stages with really cool things like riding in a wagon, throwing tomahawks, kicking in doors, rolling under a wagon, riding in a moving mining cart while shooting, etc. The manual is way more exhaustive now, as well as the other two (or three) RO manuals. The manuals keep getting bigger and bigger trying to clarify all of the nuances that come up and it seems to me that it just obfuscates the issue even more. Like Dogmeat says, no manual can cover everything. When I say get out there and try shooting, it doesn't have anything to do with me or any of us on the wire. It's because, like the rest of us, I will never forget the joy of that first shoot and how long it took for that smile to leave my face. Keep posting all you like, but do yourself the favor of getting to that match. I can guarantee you at least one thing. You will wish you had gone much earlier. Best of luck to you. Shoot straight if you can, but it doesn't really matter. Most of the targets are bent anyway. Just get out there and shoot. And then start a brand new thread and gives us every single detail you can remember.

 

Kid:

If it took driving the 2,859 miles and 41 total hours to get to Oakland, California and I could participate in these activities during a shoot, I'd consider it.

That's part of my plan.

What I am trying to do, is sort of like a blog only using the SASS WIRE to chart the trials and tribulations of a new SASS Shooter every step of the way. I've covered the researching of my equipment and firearms to their eventual acquisition, and obtaining my gun belt and holsters and shot shell belt (which has three (3) 38 caliber loops sewn in it - LOL). I'm finishing my practice targets and will be posting them on the WIRE and will include video of my first practice session. There will be more to present as it transpires.

Thank you for the great response.

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The biggest reason everyone tells you to shoot a match first and then get into the nitty gritty details is to save you a lot of hair pulling. As to trying to clarify the manual more, well I have seen one of the early manuals and it was a few pages long, despite back then folks were shoot far more complicated stages with really cool things like riding in a wagon, throwing tomahawks, kicking in doors, rolling under a wagon, riding in a moving mining cart while shooting, etc. The manual is way more exhaustive now, as well as the other two (or three) RO manuals. The manuals keep getting bigger and bigger trying to clarify all of the nuances that come up and it seems to me that it just obfuscates the issue even more. Like Dogmeat says, no manual can cover everything. When I say get out there and try shooting, it doesn't have anything to do with me or any of us on the wire. It's because, like the rest of us, I will never forget the joy of that first shoot and how long it took for that smile to leave my face. Keep posting all you like, but do yourself the favor of getting to that match. I can guarantee you at least one thing. You will wish you had gone much earlier. Best of luck to you. Shoot straight if you can, but it doesn't really matter. Most of the targets are bent anyway. Just get out there and shoot. And then start a brand new thread and gives us every single detail you can remember.

 

+10

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Kid:

If it took driving the 2,859 miles and 41 total hours to get to Oakland, California and I could participate in these activities during a shoot, I'd consider it.

That's part of my plan.

What I am trying to do, is sort of like a blog only using the SASS WIRE to chart the trials and tribulations of a new SASS Shooter every step of the way. I've covered the researching of my equipment and firearms to their eventual acquisition, and obtaining my gun belt and holsters and shot shell belt (which has three (3) 38 caliber loops sewn in it - LOL). I'm finishing my practice targets and will be posting them on the WIRE and will include video of my first practice session. There will be more to present as it transpires.

Thank you for the great response.

I have read most, if not all, of those threads. I have enjoyed reading about your choice in leather, guns and gear. All I was saying is that there comes a point of diminishing returns where one can actually over research and miss out on some really good times. Now I did the opposite and just shot with stuff I had, bought new stuff, didn't like it and bought more, didn't like it and bought even more until I finally found exactly what I like. So perhaps there is a bit of a middle ground. And yet I still wish I had started even earlier. I know that I will always be able to buy more guns and gear, but time is one commodity that I can never get back. Have I ever mentioned how much I like your avatar?

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If I may be so bold, yer priorities are a might skewed... there ain't no problem or obstacle so big as not to be ignored whilst one cowboys up & shoots a match... the pasture wait til next week to get mowed, and if it rains... rainy days are much better for muckin' stalls anyway. I can't DO nuttin' fer that sick cow, the vet can't make it til Monday anyway... there's a thousand million excuses for not taking a day or two a month to enjoy yourowndangedself... but not a single good reason. It's called a "mental health day!" Necessary for one's sanity.

 

Ya are wearing the pants in the house, right? I know I do, she sez it's ok to tell everyone that... We reasoned it out... It seemed immenaitely more than fair that if she got 4-5 days a month to go completely nuts, (her word, not mine... but I did disagree for appearances sake, and hospital avoidance)... I could have a little itty-bitty portion of ONE Saturday a month! Let's put it this way,when she found how much quieter it was, she upped my "personal" days to two!

 

If ya think it'll help, I bet quite a few your SASS Wire pards will attest to the notion, that yer part way there! (Destination insanity)!

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Heck, if yer goin' anyway, dress up, strap on them hoglegs and SHOOT! Don't make me come down there, hook ya up to the 525hp & 1650 ftlbs of semi truck and drag you & yer gear out to shoot. I already made my "every 5 years to remind myself why I don't go" trip to FL, just last week! Ya can't be a pertpetual "newbie". Remember that famous sayin', "... doin' the same thing, over & over, then expecting different results, is the very definition of insanity." Readin' the SHB more than twice shoulda taught ya that!

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You don't owe anyone an apology. If anything a few people owe you one.

 

 

+!

 

 

 

Yep, add another +1.

Hi Kit,

 

I agree with these posts. It makes me sad that you think you owe people an apology. You were occasionally treated with condescension or sarcasm for asking reasonable newbie questions. :(

 

You were wise enough to follow your threads, so you saw it all. I wish I could have deleted a few before you saw them. They were not that holy and honorable "cowboy way" that some of the people who made those comments preach about.

 

I too have my own way of learning. I listen, take notes, and write notes from the "book." I don't just pick up the point from reading or hearing. It is much more difficult for me to commit things to memory. We all learn differently. Also, our comfort level effects our learning. I was lucky to have my Hubby to ask questions about SASS. (He started shooting years before I did.) If I had to ask people I didn't know, I would be inhibited and stressed while trying to learn.

 

Anyway, I hope you put the things that made you feel you needed to apologize behind you, start shooting, and enjoy it! :)

 

Sincerely,

 

Allie

 

PS I have a BS in BA with an Accounting Concentration. So, maybe that helps me understand your delving into a subject in depth before jumping in to things. :unsure:

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You don't owe anyone an apology. If anything a few people owe you one.

Another +1

 

Father Kit,

When I started in SASS I didn't know about the Wire. Once I found it I would ask questions that would irritate some folks, at least that is what I thought. In many cases it was a case of the written word not coming across as it would if people were having discussions face to face. Sometimes they were just plain irritated and my questions set them off.

 

You just keep asking questions if you want to. You are a member of SASS and even if you weren't I would say the same thing.

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Ok...ok...I do owe an apology and I apologize for shooting from the lip...from one newbie to another...I look forward to meeting and shooting with you someday...Jim

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Howdy Garth,

 

It took me a while to actually start shooting. I observed three monthly matches and helped setup three matches prior to shooting my first match. Finances some what controlled my initial firearm choices. My first set of pistols, OMV 4-5/8", are long gone and my first rifle a Rossi 1892 is reserved for my wife. Did keep my SxS. I now own five sets of pistols, two 1873 rifles and two Baikal SxS. There is nothing like live fire on the range at a CAS/SASS match with a bunch of good pards & pardetts. Try it, you'll like it. Best wishes to you.

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

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Hey if you ain't been spanked on the wire you ain't a sass shooter

Rafe

:blink:

 

As a Moderator, this bothers me because it is true.

 

Back in 2004, when I first became a TG, I decided I needed to read the Wire and keep up with rule clarifications. I remember my first post well. I got slammed. :o I'd post the same thing today as slamming Allie is second nature to some and I know whose opinions I respect. (Those skin thickening exercises worked!)

 

I was told by my mentor as a TG, the TG of another local club, that he never posted and that my first post was "Tilting at Windmills." He didn't say I was wrong in my post. He just implied that entrenched patterns of behavior were not likely to change based on a newbie's post. I even had scientific evidence to support that post! Those things didn't stop me from posting and taking hits.

 

As a Moderator, I wish this spanking behavior would stop. I will delete or edit mean-spirited posts when I see them or they are Reported. Please folks, the Moderators can't read every post and could use your help Reporting rude or offensive posts. They do not reflect well on our beloved sport, especially to people who are just thinking of joining us.

 

Sincerely and Respectfully,

 

Allie Mo

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Allie...I was just funning..and it was not funny. So sorry I cannot take it back. With greatest respect....Jim

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You don't owe anyone an apology. Just come on out and get your ass in the grass,,,,,plain and simple.

 

Cypress:

That's the plan. Appreciate the vote of confidence.

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You don't owe anyone an apology. Just come on out and get your ass in the grass,,,,,plain and simple.

And most of us have some extra guns just waiting to be shot. I've got pistols you can borrow just let me know.

 

Waimea

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Imo the ro manuals are the trading guides and the shb is the rule book although I feel it could have been written in a better manor it is what it is.i came in to sass myself after retiring from the usaf. I was in maintenance for most of my career where used technical orders to preform our tasks then was retrained in to ops where we had manuals to guide us in our duties. So when I read the shb first I read it much like the manuals I was used to but after some time I realized it was much like the TO that we used in maintenance each section being a whole on its own. And that's how the shb is written imo you have the general rules and info first then it gets in to the specifics of each category. You must realize that each category is a section of its own being separate from the others. If you read it as it pertains to you and your category then you'll be ok but if you try to combine it all you'll have trouble.

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