Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 I would be happy with "after the second round of smokeless in a match, the shooter has the option of,,, 1, change to smokeless cat, 2, a P for shooting out of cat for any subsequent smokelss round fired, with appropriate penalties for additional smokeless rounds fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 I would be happy with "after the second round of smokeless in a match, the shooter has the option of,,, 1, change to smokeless cat, 2, a P for shooting out of cat for any subsequent smokelss round fired, with appropriate penalties for additional smokeless rounds fired. that makes sense! I shoot some BP. I always mark the primers with a sharpie so I know what they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 I shoot some BP. I always mark the primers with a sharpie so I know what they are. Makes way too much sense, Hoss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 The Rule is the Rule until the Rule is changed. I am all for changing and clarifying a Rule. I aim not for violating a Rule. Suggest a way to clarify the Rule. Not present reasons for not following the Rule. Sounds like Obama - don't like the law - don't enforce it. Until the Rule is changed - we are required to obey and enforce the Rule, as is. Otherwise we have anarchy ! Time for a Brandy ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 I would be happy with "after the second round of smokeless in a match, the shooter has the option of,,, 1, change to smokeless cat, 2, a P for shooting out of cat for any subsequent smokelss round fired, with appropriate penalties for additional smokeless rounds fired. Who will be responsible for tracking the "freebie(s)", followed by any subsequent changes to the shooter's score and/or category? Currently there can be an issue with differentiating between a "standard" procedural and the first of a progressive violation (in which a second infraction would be a SDQ, followed by a MDQ for the 3rd) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 TO - That was one pretty weak smoky round. Shooter - Yup. Must have gotten a smokeless round mixed in there. TO - You know what that means don't ya? Shooter - Yup. Earned myself a P on that one. Next shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Ok. A smokeless round, noticably quieter, barely gets out of the barrel. One time, no call. I'm assuming that the rules state an exact number of times for this to occur before the ammunition is declared unsafe. What is it? 2,3,4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Please read the RO-II manual page 14/15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
largo casey #19191 Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Hey Palewolf,Hows your BP doin about now.. Largo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Hey Palewolf,Hows your BP doin about now.. Largo They put me on BP meds a week ago after I'd logged in some record high numbers...Found that a "cooling down" waiting period is helpful before the PM check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 They put me on BP meds a week ago after I'd logged in some record high numbers... Found that a "cooling down" waiting period is helpful before the PM check. I take it that you are not referring to black powder and your record setting score at your last match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 "Benefit of the doubt" is not a concept to be used in determination of calls involving black powder shooters. Smokeless only. Gee. I guess I missed that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Well, even if I were to shoot an errant smokeless round in the middle of a string, I don't think that any one could tell or be sure except for the sound, because there is already so much smoke in the air. If the smoke is so light that one round does show up, I would be suspect of the BP ammo. I would not argue that if proven it would be a "P" for out of category. Remember your ROII: ".......... So, if there is not absolutely conclusive evidence of a missed target, shooter error, safety or rule violation, the Chief Range Officer must make every effort to assist the shooter by relating any necessary scoring changes to the score keeper immediately upon resolution..." Most things can NOT be proved, so conclusive evidence then comes down to the T.O.s Opinion,, and the fact is, it is his/her call to begin with. If the T.O. says it was a smokeless round, then the shooter can appeal the T.O. call, and the RM decides if there is conclusive evidence. If the RM concludes that it was a smokeless round, then you are stuck with it...... and IMO, it stinks. I'm going to go out in the morning and make sure that the ammo in my cartridge belt is all BP before I leave for WR and have to face all those Hardasses. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 I take it that you are not referring to black powder and your record setting score at your last match? Not hardly! "Benefit of the doubt" is not a concept to be used in determination of calls involving black powder shooters. Smokeless only. Gee. I guess I missed that. From the OP: For sake of discussion, assume a smokeless round was indeed accidentally comingled with BP. After round is fired, how do you "prove" the round in question was "smokeless", or are "observations sufficient?" See also post #37. BTW-"Squibs" & under-powered rounds ARE judged by different standards in the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Well, even if I were to shoot an errant smokeless round in the middle of a string, I don't think that any one could tell or be sure except for the sound, because there is already so much smoke in the air. If the smoke is so light that one round does show up, I would be suspect of the BP ammo. I would not argue that if proven it would be a "P" for out of category. Remember your ROII: ".......... So, if there is not absolutely conclusive evidence of a missed target, shooter error, safety or rule violation, the Chief Range Officer must make every effort to assist the shooter by relating any necessary scoring changes to the score keeper immediately upon resolution..." Most things can NOT be proved, so conclusive evidence then comes down to the T.O.s Opinion,, and the fact is, it is his/her call to begin with. If the T.O. says it was a smokeless round, then the shooter can appeal the T.O. call, and the RM decides if there is conclusive evidence. If the RM concludes that it was a smokeless round, then you are stuck with it...... and IMO, it stinks. I'm going to go out in the morning and make sure that the ammo in my cartridge belt is all BP before I leave for WR and have to face all those Hardasses. Snakebite This "Hardass" won't be there this year. BTW - IIRC, there are a number of former & current ROC members responding on this thread who were involved in establishing the "BP SMOKE STANDARD" protocols & penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Gonna miss you pard. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Gonna miss you pard. Snakebite Same here, mon ami! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 SHORT REFRESHER re penalties: Use of smokeless ammo in a BP category = Progressive P/SDQ/MDQ SQUIB = MISS + MISSES for any rounds remaining (option to load a functional firearm to finish the stage...depending on firearm type) Failure of a round to reach & HIT a target (under-powered load) = MISS No one is getting a free ride re the use of defective or ILLEGAL ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 problem is,,,, it's not in the books that way and thus it won't get called evenly.... but I get it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 problem is,,,, it's not in the books that way and thus it won't get called evenly.... but I get it How is simplifying this a problem?...and why am I explaining the concept to an RO INSTRUCTOR? BLACKPOWDER CATEGORIES It is expected the blackpowder competitor shall contend with smoke obscured targets. To ensure this, all shotgun, revolver, and rifle powder charges must produce smoke at least equivalent to a baseline load of 15 grains by volume (1 cc) of ffg blackpowder. ... ... ... Must use blackpowder in all loads (rifle, revolver, and shotgun). SHB p.15 10-Second Penalties ... ... First offence, in the same match, for failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which the shooter is competing. RO1 p.25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 If you can determine that it was an actual smokeless round. Maybe it was merely a different sounding and less Smokey, but still black powder round. Similar to a lighter sounding, near squib, that occurs when shooting smokeless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 What if it was a black powder squib that just barely cleared the barrel but had no powder? (Ducks to avoid getting hit in the face with the rule book) Thanks for putting up with all the madness PaleWolf. I was only kidding with this question. 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 What if it was a black powder squib that just barely cleared the barrel but had no powder? (Ducks to avoid getting hit in the face with the rule book) Thanks for putting up with all the madness PaleWolf. I was only kidding with this question. Are we going to have to spank you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Dang PWB, You ruined my plan to use the black powder defense this weekend! I was planning on asking for a warning for my first miss of the day. I'd hate to mess up a good match with just one miss. ............and if that worked I had planned on using the BP defense for any other first time penalties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 How is simplifying this a problem? ...and why am I explaining the concept to an RO INSTRUCTOR? I said I got it!! but like other calls, it's not called evenly acorss the SASS...and not everyone reads the wire.. if it does happen when I'm TO ing or spotting I'll be holding up my pinky!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.