"questionable ammunition" question / WTC

[dal sackett]

The rules are very clear regarding how to handle challenged ammunition (i.e. power factor, etc) for smokeless loads. However, I cannot find anything regarding challenged BP loads (other than 1cc equivalent). Specifically, how would the following scenario be "called?" Shooter is shooting in a BP category. All rounds fired belch plenty of smoke (rifle, pistol, SG). Then a round is fired that creates little / no smoke. Subsequent rounds all belch. Spotters call "P" for failure to shoot in category. Shooter protests call. Rounds randomly selected from remaining ammunition all belch plenty of smoke. For sake of discussion, assume a smokeless round was indeed accidentally comingled with BP. After round is fired, how do you "prove" the round in question was "smokeless", or are "observations sufficient?"

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

Good question I'll be watching this thread. Shooting BP and a loading for wife who does not shoot BP I often worry about accidentally loading a smokeless round.

[Pat Riot]

Seriously, one round? I think I would cut a person some slack for one round...but then, that's me. I m not an RO or anything official.

[Dantankerous]

If your black powder rounds make enough smoke and you shoot fast enough no one will be able to tell that there was one smokeless round in there somewhere.

 

My pure conjecture on this would be if it is a isolated one-time occurrence it's most certainly purely accidental and should probably be bypassed. I have seen this happen on at least two occasions and there was an verbal "oops" and a "what the..?"followed by a couple of giggles by the spotters and everything moved on smoothly. If the shooter has multiple failures to adhere to this rule he may have a problem determining what ammunition is what and this might be considered a safety issue. Or he might be viewed as trying to gain some kind of a competitive advantage. Lots of subjectivity here.

 

Forthcoming discussion on this should be interesting.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

ROI, page 5: #4 and #10

 

This discusses the 'Hard Ass' guidelines AND 'Benefit of Doubt' to the shooter.

 

Although there wasn't any doubt as to the amount of smoke (or lack thereof), I would hope this guideline would help with a 'No Call'.

 

I'm curious as to PWB's answer.

 

 

..........Widder

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

The observations of the T/O & the spotters should be sufficient to make such a call. The shooter's protest would not necessarily warrant a "smoke check" for a single smokeless round being fired mid-stage.

Often the empty hull/case will provide evidence of the type of propellant with which it was loaded.

 

I would be more inclined to enforce the penalty for any "suspiously fortuitous" violations (e.g. a smokeless KD shot that activated a flyer that would be more easily engaged without having to engage through a cloud of BP smoke).

[Cat Brules]

Technically speaking, "if the bug cannot be reproduced," then move move on without imposing a penalty on the shooter. But, you watch for any further aberration (not "abbreviations," damn phone!). If a further occurrence manifests, then you go through more of the shooter's ammo, maybe pulling bullets, looking for duplex loads, questioning the shooter regarding obvious possibilities, etc. If further incidents arise after that, I'd say go ahead and impose a penalty. Shooting BP obviously carries the accompanying obscuring of targets, which is part of the category and hence, the game. Intentionally trying to circumvent that aspect of the category would, in my view, constitute an unfair competitive advantage. At that point the shooter would have to bend over and accept 3 or 4 good swift kicks in the butt :-) and penalties prescribed in SASS rules. The seriousness of this matter escalates if this occurs at a sanctioned SASS match.

 

Having said that and further to my suggestions or assessments above however, I'd like to hear from Pale Wolf to understand how he would deal with it.

 

EDIT:

Looks like PWB was quick on the draw, posting prior to my reply.

 

Cat Brules

[Seldom Seen #16162]

It should take more than just a call based on amount of smoke. Smokeless rounds sound different the blackpowder ones.

 

But keeping in the spirit of this forum there ought to be a match disqualification for trying to gain a competitive advantage.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Only 1 rnd , BOD to the shooter.

OLG

[Dantankerous]

The times I have witnessed this happen (and I'm sure it was purely accidental on the part of the shooter) once the shooter fired the smokeless round and was startled by the lack of boom and smoke it threw off any cadence the shooter may have had and certainly slowed him down causing any competitive edge to go right out the stagecoach window.

 

I think if a shooter has multiple instances of smokeless rounds being interjected into a black powder match and the shooter does not appear to be surprised or startled by this, quite possibly they were anticipating it or possibly even practiced for it an attempt at finding that competitive edge. Grounds for dismissal, certainly.

 

I just can't imagine this happening. More trouble than it's worth. Too obvious to everybody around that something ain't right all too frequently.

[Smoken D]

Tough call unless it happens a lot and is obvious the shooter may have grabbed the wrong box of ammo. I just finished shooting today and shot F.C. and the range I shot at was my first time at that range. There was NO breeze what so ever and my smoke went no where but in front of the stage where even the spotters could not see hits/misses. Hevick trying to figure where the targets were. Now this has happen to me more than once. The next time I shoot may shoot Senior with smokeless and all of a sudden in the shotgun goes a big BOOM. It will shake you up, a nervous smile, and a bunch of giggles from the crowd.

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

I suggest average smoke for a shooting string is what is desired. As some rounds have more smoke and some rounds less smoke (even little smoke) is likely. Not much different than a (low load) smokeless round that barely exits the barrel and just reaches the target.

 

However, I have a concern with the concept that a smokeless round mixed in with Black Powder rounds is an accident that is to be ignored. A miss is an accident and is not ignored. An accidentally dropped firearm is not ignored. The Shooter is responsible for using the correct ammunition. If the Shooter uses incorrect ammunition, accident or not, a penalty is earned. This is different than a low load BP round with low smoke or a low load smokeless round with too low a power factor. As the question in the OP - an examination of the spent brass can reasonably determine whether it was charged with BP or smokeless. Also, a reasonable velocity round with no smoke could be reasonably judged as smokeless.

[Assassin]

Saw it happen at EOT in 2001. Shooter was shooting BP and mixed up smokeless and BP SG loads. One smokeless SG load cost the shooter a "P".

[Major BS Walker Regulator]

I switch back and forth from smoke to smokeless a lot and have never shot a smokeless round while shooting a BP category because like it or not, it is a penalty. I have forgotten to change out my reloads on my shotgun belt and while shooting smokeless, reloaded my rifle with a BP round and boom, but there is no penalty for that.

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

been there done that! no call, mistakes happen. If it was more than one I would fuss at him, but I have found a round in my cart/bag that wound up smokeless. I have also had it the other way around were I was shooting smokeless and a huge boom and flame/smoke was produced that gets your attention.

Rafe

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Rules is rules. I had ONE smokeless round somehow get into my BP ammo at a big match. Cost me a shooting out-of-category penalty. So what are people suggeting? One is a no-call, two is a warning and three gets you a penalty? I personally like the one round is an accident and should be a no-call theory. Unfortunatly that theory is not universally applied.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

I've shot a smokeless round when shooting BP. I was not assessed a penalty but would not protest if one was called. My first impression was that I had a squib and I hesitated a fraction of a second until I realized what happened. There is no competitive advantage for me if this happens. It is a distraction.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Had it happen to me at guns of August

Was accessed a shooting out of category penalty

Dawg

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Seriously, a penalty for one round that was not up to snuff? Would all or any of you assess a SOG to a shooter who has a squib, which would obviously not meet the minimum power factor?

[Dantankerous]

Just use Trailboss for your smokeless powder. It smokes enough there'd be no one notice it.

 

 

Now that I am thinking more broadly with this P thing...

 

Several times I have witnessed different shooters shooting duelist and yet, accidentally their off hand went to the grip on the gun for one shot (generally right after they pull it from leather). Simply a muscle memory thing from having shot two handed for years. The shooter realized their mistake and dropped their hand immediately. Two shooters did this after they fired the first round from the revolver, one before. (I generally watch all shooters on my posse... just because I like to see people shoot). TO saw it and gave a reminder, but no call. No one said anything. Obviously an accident. Technically this should have been a P for shooting out of category. Small match and big match, no call for a small error; nothing safety related.

 

Perhaps a P should have been given? Perhaps because no one saw a problem with a slight non safety accident no one wanted to press the issue an make something out of almost nothing.

 

This said, I got a P for shooting out of class last year one time on a re-shoot I had been given. I managed to shoot the re-shoot clean and faster than the original stage shoot, but earned a P. Ammo was not the issue, but one observant posse pard saw the mistake, recognized it, and called it. I was dumbfounded at first. Whaaaa? He explained it to me. Ooooooh... Duh! I used it as a learning experience and moved on. I WON'T be making that particular mistake ever again. But, it was much more obvious an error (non safety) than one smokeless round in a cloud of black powder smoke.

[Cassalong Hopidy]

When Pale Wolf speaks we all listen carefully (or should). So I accept that there may be situations in which a penalty COULD be called for a single but plainly evident failure to use a round producing sufficient smoke. For example, a shooter conceding that he fired a smokeless round. But the rules generally envision penalties based on the testing of ammo after the fact. So in the absence of such subsequent corroboration (I am assuming no other

suspect rounds used in the match), I would personally feel obliged to accord the shooter the benefit of the doubt.

[Dantankerous]

...I would personally feel obliged to accord the shooter the benefit of the doubt.

Just like the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter if you only THINK it's a miss...

[Widder, SASS #59054]

PWB,

 

Your starting to look more like yeowndangself. ..

Thanks for posting your new avatar.

 

Obviously (and hopefully) you are back on the mends and getting better.

 

 

..........Widder

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Howdy Cassalong.

 

its appears that there wasn't any doubt about the round not being BP.

 

Which apparently justified the penalty.

 

I don't look for smoke and such and therefore, I wouldn't have been calling for the penalty.

 

I'm curious: what if only 1 spotter called it a No Smoke round and assessed the penalty and the other 2 spotters felt like it was enough smoke. It only takes 1 spotter to call the 'P'.

I'm sure the TO would have to make a final call on this one.

 

Hope you are doing well and I hope we manage to shoot together again this year.

 

 

..........Widder

[Cassalong Hopidy]

Howdy Cassalong.

 

its appears that there wasn't any doubt about the round not being BP.

 

Which apparently justified the penalty.

 

I don't look for smoke and such and therefore, I wouldn't have been calling for the penalty.

 

I'm curious: what if only 1 spotter called it a No Smoke round and assessed the penalty and the other 2 spotters felt like it was enough smoke. It only takes 1 spotter to call the 'P'.

I'm sure the TO would have to make a final call on this one.

 

Hope you are doing well and I hope we manage to shoot together again this year.

 

 

..........Widder

If you say so, Widder. I didn't get that from the OP. As you know, the TO is expected to hear and consider the observations of the Spotters but is the one with the responsibility for deciding whether to assess Ps and safeties, subject to so appeals relating to ijterpretation of the rules. Looking forward to shooting with you too, my friend.

 

Cass

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

PWB,

 

Your starting to look more like yeowndangself. ..

Thanks for posting your new avatar.

 

Obviously (and hopefully) you are back on the mends and getting better.

 

 

..........Widder

Thanks, Widder!

Still fighting off a couple of viral infections...did you know that wolves with compromised immunity are susceptible to Parvovirus?

But the transplant coordinator said that I had to see a "people doctor" for treatment rather than my vet.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Thanks, Widder!

Still fighting off a couple of viral infections...did you know that wolves with compromised immunity are susceptible to Parvovirus?

But the transplant coordinator said that I had to see a "people doctor" for treatment rather than my vet.

If you have had to go to the vet recently the people doctor is probably cheaper.

[Yusta B.]

Thanks, Widder!

Still fighting off a couple of viral infections...did you know that wolves with compromised immunity are susceptible to Parvovirus?

But the transplant coordinator said that I had to see a "people doctor" for treatment rather than my vet.

I'd rather go to Dr. Pol than most of the Drs & NPs I go to now.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

If you have had to go to the vet recently the people doctor is probably cheaper.

My vet (from when I had critters living at the Wolf Den with me) gave me a discount for not bringing them into his waiting room due to their anti-social behavior.

 

I'd rather go to Dr. Pol than most of the Drs & NPs I go to now.

Since I am under the care of the OHSU transplant team, they want to monitor the recovery process...my vet is doing double duty as mayor of our fair city.

[Griff]

Howdy Cassalong.

 

its appears that there wasn't any doubt about the round not being BP.

 

Which apparently justified the penalty.

 

I don't look for smoke and such and therefore, I wouldn't have been calling for the penalty.

 

I'm curious: what if only 1 spotter called it a No Smoke round and assessed the penalty and the other 2 spotters felt like it was enough smoke. It only takes 1 spotter to call the 'P'.

I'm sure the TO would have to make a final call on this one.

 

Hope you are doing well and I hope we manage to shoot together again this year.

 

 

..........Widder

Actually, the TO can make that call without the input from ANY spotter...

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Actually, the TO can make that call without the input from ANY spotter...

This is so...the OP didn't indicate the T/O's perspective...just that the spotters apparently agreed that there was little or no smoke visible for the one shot during the stage engagement. The T/O could/should overrule the spotters' input only if certain that they are mistaken (and the T/O is in a position to make that assessment).

 

It would be helpful to know which firearm was involved; smokeless shotgun rounds being much more evident than BP and easier to observe due to the slower rate of fire (generally).

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

BTW - The process for testing a shooter's ammo for compliance with the BP smoke standard can be found on pages 14-15 of the RO2.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

If your black powder rounds make enough smoke and you shoot fast enough no one will be able to tell that there was one smokeless round in there somewhere.

 

I like that, just shoot faster

 

BTW - The process for testing a shooter's ammo for compliance with the BP smoke standard can be found on pages 14-15 of the RO2.

Glad yer home and on the mend PW, the blue ink from your home is much brighter than the hospitals was . Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[mean gun mark]

Rules is rules. I had ONE smokeless round somehow get into my BP ammo at a big match. Cost me a shooting out-of-category penalty. So what are people suggeting? One is a no-call, two is a warning and three gets you a penalty? I personally like the one round is an accident and should be a no-call theory. Unfortunatly that theory is not universally applied.

as a match director and a black powder shooter, good , bad, indifferent them are the rules.

[Major BS Walker Regulator]

+1 Mean One