Sizing Down Shotgun Shells - SASS Rule

[Cat Brules]

In another topic, John Boy posted a reply, quoting a SASS rule, excerpting as follows:

 

" Shotgun shells shall not be sized down by the use of any die not manufactured for the

specific gauge."

 

So, what precisely does this mean?

Does it mean squeezing down the shell diameter by some mechanical means to below SAAMI specs., leaving the metal shellhead intact, in order to somehow create a slimmer shell profile that loads and shucks easier? If so, wouldn't the shell expand under fire (to the chamber size anyway), not shuck easier and maybe rupture?

Wouldn't the shell be damaged in the size-down process?

Doesn't make sense. What advantage is there?

So, what does this refer to? From what issue(s) did this rule originate? Was this ever a significant

problem?

 

Cat Brules

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

People were running the crimp end of loaded ammo thought a 20 gauge sizer backwards, making the shells more pointy. That is not allowed anymore.

[Snakebite]

Some knot heads were making pointed shells so that they would load easier....

 

sb

[Cat Brules]

Ah ha! That's pretty tacky, ain't it?

:-)

 

Thanks,

Cat Brules

[Blackey Cole]

Taking a 20 ga or 16 ga die and downsizing a 12 ga shell

[Stoney Creek]

Years ago some were using the 20 ga die to create a slight taper on the top of a 12 ga shell

 

The purpose was to enhance fast reloading of a double shotgun.

 

 

Good rule change....

 

 

[Boggus Deal #64218]

As said above, using a smaller gauge due to put a large taper on the shells for easier loading. According to Birdshot, who was a ballistics technician at Hodgdon, this drove the pressures into very unsafe levels.

Same with cutting the shells to make the front of the hull, the wad and shot charge leave the barrel in one piece like a slug. Made pressures extremely high and unsafe.

[Pat Riot]

So that's what this rule was about. Like Cat, I wondered about this when I read it. Since I don't reload shotgun shells I never gave it much thought but I couldn't figure out what was meant by it.

 

Thanks Gents

[Noz]

Made the 12 ga have the appearance of a bottle neck rifle round .

[Boggus Deal #64218]

And drives the pressures up to unsafe levels.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

And drives the pressures up to unsafe levels.

what these two said,,,, use a 16 ga die to decrease the size of the front end of the shell to make easier to go into 12 ga chamber.. had nothing to do at the time with pointy,,,

Made the 12 ga have the appearance of a bottle neck rifle round .

[Pulp, SASS#28319]

A few years ago I decided I wanted to shoot my old Greener 10 gauge in a match or two. I cut hulls down to 2.5 inches, and used a 12 gauge starter crimp just to fold the edges in enough to hold an overshot card. Folks here on the wire said I wouldn't be able to use them at EOT. Folks at EOT said because I wasn't actually sizing the shell down they would be OK. Using those shells helped me to place in the top 98% that year!😃

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Merged dupe topics.

[Cat Brules]

Merged dupe topics.

How sweet...I didn't know you could do that. :-).

Thanks Allie.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

[Kulshan 20262]

Well Mr Cat, that's on of the things the Report Button is good for... and Allie is such a dear to help us in that way!

[J.D. Daily]

While it is likely this practice will raise chamber pressure the percent increase will be extremely small; therefore not creating a safety issue . This is especially true with plastic wads. In takes little force to compress plastic wads and the tapered end of the shell is unsupported by the shotgun's chamber so it will expand to the bore diameter at low pressures. The exception would be an old shotgun chambered for older & shorter shells. In this case why would the owner not cut a 2 3/4" hull to 2 1/2" as well as tapper the shell? Only an idiot would do this and I am for idiot proofing when others can be harmed by the idiot's idiocy. All this assumes these are not brass shells.

[Pat Riot]

This topic is a "dupe"? Hahaha

 

Pat (what knows what she meant) Riot

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Example:

 

[Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L]

Example:

 

This is an example, but we did it five times more radical than this. It was fun and worked excellent, but I had no problem with them outlawing it. Johnny Meadows

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

OK I can get mine to almost look that way with a crimp labeled 12 g. So where is the cut off

Can somebody tell from a picture?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Liability, fellers. That plays a big role in some of our safety rules. When loaders start pulling tricks that are not supported by published loading instructions (slicing hulls to make "detaching plastic shot covers" and severely tapering loaded shell mouths), rules often get in place, perhaps even without a lot of proof that it is dangerous exactly (pick a number) % of the time. Bad or possibly bad ideas get spotlighted when rule makers set down for update sessions.

 

 

 

OK I can get mine to almost look that way with a crimp labeled 12 g.

 

The rules right now specify what the cut-off is. If the die is not designed for the shotgun shell's gauge it's used on, it is illegal to use it for SASS matches. For the exception granted to Pulp for an EOT match, sounds like that was also a very good call.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Cat Brules]

I'd say that if you have to think about "it" ( beyond thinking through common sense aspects), then you probably ought not do "it."

 

Here's how I see l the "waiver" given to Pulp at EOT (see his earlier reply):

I contend it wasn't a waiver at all, just a confirmation that cutting down the overall length of a modern 2 3/4" shell to the earlier 2 1/2" standard (consistent with his old Greener's chamber length), then "using what you got" (a 12ga. starter crimper) to obtain a usable crimp on the 10ga. shell, is not covered by the rule we are discussing. It's not the same as is disallowed by the rule, i.e., using lesser gauge tooling to drastically or significantly taper down shells to gain a competitive advantage. Anyway, that's how I'm seeing it.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

When this new rule was unilaterally directed by the Wild Bunch they presented data to the TGs in Vegas that showed crimping the ends of the shells produced excessive pressures that could become a safety hazard. They had a lab run the tests for them. Some of the data showed levels above SAAMI pressure levels as I recall. Many of the TGs did not believe the data but there was nothing that could be done at that point. Do not remember the name of the company that did the tests, but it was a company associated with Cowboy shooting and ammunition already.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

When this new rule was unilaterally directed by the Wild Bunch they presented data to the TGs in Vegas that showed crimping the ends of the shells produced excessive pressures that could become a safety hazard. They had a lab run the tests for them. Some of the data showed levels above SAAMI pressure levels as I recall. Many of the TGs did not believe the data but there was nothing that could be done at that point. Do not remember the name of the company that did the tests, but it was a company associated with Cowboy shooting and ammunition already.

It was Hodgdon and Birdshot was the SASS member that ran those tests.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

It was Hodgdon and Birdshot was the SASS member that ran those tests.

exactly!!

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

When this new rule was unilaterally directed by the Wild Bunch they presented data to the TGs in Vegas that showed crimping the ends of the shells produced excessive pressures that could become a safety hazard. They had a lab run the tests for them. Some of the data showed levels above SAAMI pressure levels as I recall. Many of the TGs did not believe the data but there was nothing that could be done at that point. Do not remember the name of the company that did the tests, but it was a company associated with Cowboy shooting and ammunition already.

 

Why would any TG refuse to believe the data? WB conspiracy theory? Simply absurd. Even if it was shown to result in safe pressures, this was an EXTREMELY gamey practice and should have been outlawed.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Why would any TG refuse to believe the data? WB conspiracy theory? Simply absurd. Even if it was shown to result in safe pressures, this was an EXTREMELY gamey practice and should have been outlawed.

Both of those reasons (unsafe & "gaminess") were the basis for the practice being outlawed.

[Boothill Bandit, SASS# 48598]

Same with cutting the shells to make the front of the hull, the wad and shot charge leave the barrel in one piece like a slug. Made pressures extremely high and unsafe.

Someone was doing that at Winter Range last year. We found a bunch of the cut hulls in some of the bays on the last day.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Someone was doing that at Winter Range last year. We found a bunch of the cut hulls in some of the bays on the last day.

Some suspiciously cut hulls were found by the brass pickers at a major match a few years ago...upon further investigation by the range staff, they were found to be reloads that had been trimmed back & reloaded without a crimp (glued in overshot card)

[Boothill Bandit, SASS# 48598]

The ones we found were cut far back to where the plastic wad column is. They were about an 1-1/4" in length.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

The ones we found were cut far back to where the plastic wad column is. They were about an 1-1/4" in length.

Special "KD" rounds?

The YouTube videos on how to make those "poor boy deer killers" certainly didn't help matters!

 

[Boothill Bandit, SASS# 48598]

That was the general consensus that they were for KD's. I hope I'm never on a posse with somebody who uses those.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

That was the general consensus that they were for KD's. I hope I'm never on a posse with somebody who uses those.

 

If you are, they won't be for long after the MDQ!

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Aren't almost all shotgun targets, other than flyers, knockdown at established clubs?