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Cypress Sam, SASS #10915

How do you "outrun the gun?"

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I've heard this term used for many years, but never heard a precise definition as to what it is.

 

Some pards say that on a '73, they pull the trigger and can open the action before the hammer falls - outrunning the gun? I don't think so. I think their trigger timing is such that they pull late in the cycle, or they have a faulty gun and the hammer follows the bolt without pulling the trigger at all.

 

Both Marlin 94's and Win/Rossi 92's have internal safety's that prevent the firing pin from hitting the primer if the trigger is pulled too soon or to late. Even with lightened springs the hammer fall is very quick. Quicker than reversing directions and opening the lever far enough to prevent discharge.

 

Springs can be lightened to the point that gun function is impared and fast operation "outruns" the spring, but is that "outrunning the gun?"

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Since I can't outrun one from either end I probably do not have the correct answer, but to me I think what people mean is the mechanical limitations of a certain rifle or of any rifle keep them from shooting as fast as they can fire it or think they can fire it.

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Since I can't outrun one from either end I probably do not have the correct answer, but to me I think what people mean is the mechanical limitations of a certain rifle or of any rifle keep them from shooting as fast as they can fire it or think they can fire it.

+1

When you can run a gun to the point it solws you down

Because it can not be run any faster .

 

Or You can make the gun malfunction

Because you are running faster then the can run !

 

I cant out run anything :-)

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Short answer, you don't. It's all personal timing. Catching your hammer or jacking rounds out of a rifle are products of your perdonal timing being off.

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Short answer, you don't. It's all personal timing. Catching your hammer or jacking rounds out of a rifle are products of your perdonal timing being off.

I proved this Saturday at Paradise Pass......my personal timing was off.

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Thanks Deuce, that was my thought too. It has always seemed to me that the mechanism of a properly timed gun of any type can run much faster than any human can manipulate the action.

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Not true. Some people can pull the trigger on a semi-auto faster than the gun can properly function. Look up Ed McGivern.

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Not true. Some people can pull the trigger on a semi-auto faster than the gun can properly function. Look up Ed McGivern.

 

And you don't even have to be a Deuce Stevens/Red River Ray class shooter to be able to shoot five out of a tuned revolver faster than a semi-auto's mechanism will allow you to shoot five.

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It will never be a problem for me- :lol:

But, with super weak hammer springs and SLO hammer fall. It can/will happen.

It's called 'lock time'.

OLG

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It will never be a problem for me- :lol:

But, with super weak hammer springs and SLO hammer fall. It can/will happen.

It's called 'lock time'.

OLG

Sorry have to disagree, locktime not a factor in CAS.

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Sorry have to disagree, locktime not a factor in CAS.

I'm call'n 'lock time' as the time it takes the hammer to fall, and smack the FP.

Seen some that are so SLO, it surprises me the gun will fire- ^_^

OLG

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In my opinion the lock time argument is a sales gimmick and nothing more. I have seen some very lightly sprung guns run extremely fast. I am not saying that it's not possible to outrun ahammer with a light spring, but if there are shooters who can they are damn few and I have not met any.

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In my opinion the lock time argument is a sales gimmick and nothing more. I have seen some very lightly sprung guns run extremely fast. I am not saying that it's not possible to outrun a hammer with a light spring, but if there are shooters who can they are damn few and I have not met any.

 

My opinion also.

 

Riding the hammer down or getting back on it before the trigger is pulled (personal timing, as DS said)... different problems.

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I have an example that might be considered, outrunning my gun. I have 2 SXS shotguns. A biakial bounty hunter and a hammered double from Coyote Cap. The lock time on the on the biakial is such that I pull the trigger, it goes bang and move to the second shot. After several years of shooting this gun, I have no trouble hitting the first shot. Along come the hammer gun. Pull the trigger, expect the bang, move to the second shot and bang between targets. I have to wait for it to go off. My timing will have to be adjusted to shoot this gun effectively.

 

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

 

Chancy

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I have an example that might be considered, outrunning my gun. I have 2 SXS shotguns. A biakial bounty hunter and a hammered double from Coyote Cap. The lock time on the on the biakial is such that I pull the trigger, it goes bang and move to the second shot. After several years of shooting this gun, I have no trouble hitting the first shot. Along come the hammer gun. Pull the trigger, expect the bang, move to the second shot and bang between targets. I have to wait for it to go off. My timing will have to be adjusted to shoot this gun effectively.

 

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

 

 

 

Chancy

Sounds to some like you have a broken gun.

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In my opinion the lock time argument is a sales gimmick and nothing more. I have seen some very lightly sprung guns run extremely fast. I am not saying that it's not possible to outrun ahammer with a light spring, but if there are shooters who can they are damn few and I have not met any.

Mike-I would think with you and Deuce be'n 'Borg Class' shooters, would be more that capable of out run'n 'slow hammers'.

Let me ask this-When I see a video of Deuce or Smokestack haven to do a 'go-around' on the pistol. Think'n you both run short stroked HG's. What is the most common reason other than a 'no-fire' issue on the first try? Mike I know you have told me you pull the trigger each time with the pistol. Deuce, are you doing the same, or 'slip-hammer'?

Thank you both, for the input here. B)

OLG

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I have an example that might be considered, outrunning my gun. I have 2 SXS shotguns. A biakial bounty hunter and a hammered double from Coyote Cap. The lock time on the on the biakial is such that I pull the trigger, it goes bang and move to the second shot. After several years of shooting this gun, I have no trouble hitting the first shot. Along come the hammer gun. Pull the trigger, expect the bang, move to the second shot and bang between targets. I have to wait for it to go off. My timing will have to be adjusted to shoot this gun effectively.

 

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

 

Chancy

Agree with SS.

Pull the butt stock off and flush the insides out with brake cleaner.

OLG

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Doesn't it mean throwing the gun as far as you can... then running past where it landed?

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I've out run my factory '66 several times. Pistols, rifle and shotgun sequence. I shoot left pistol holster, right pistol holster, I run past the rifle forgetting all about it until I picked up the SxS and hear the posse a yelling. Restage SxS and run back to the rifle. Happens more than I'd want to admit.

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How do you "outrun the gun?"

 

Recently, I set my Winchester 44 WCF down by a tree... and said to it... "Last one to the creek buys breakfast".

 

Moved as fast as I could... and the rifle got to the creek... and back up to the tree... before I could even drain the lizard in the creek. BTW... hearin' runnin' water helps me out.

 

Gettin' old... is not fun.

 

ts

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I proved this Saturday at Paradise Pass......my personal timing was off.

It was 0 degrees outside! Man, we were nuts!

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There's a difference between running out of time, verses overrunning the gun. I know exactly when the triggers going to break, and begin cocking at that very instant. Now I'm clicking my way around the cylinder, and taking a half miss in time penalty.

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Its not that I beat the hammer. I got out of time, and began cocking it too early. I can't over run my springs. Had one that's really light, and handed it to smokestack, rifle that is...... he unloaded my rifle in less than 2 seconds, and passed it back to me. He didn't over run it either. Those springs are really light. Won't even fire Winchester primers everytime. Its a hoax.

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Mike-I would think with you and Deuce be'n 'Borg Class' shooters, would be more that capable of out run'n 'slow hammers'.

Let me ask this-When I see a video of Deuce or Smokestack haven to do a 'go-around' on the pistol. Think'n you both run short stroked HG's. What is the most common reason other than a 'no-fire' issue on the first try? Mike I know you have told me you pull the trigger each time with the pistol. Deuce, are you doing the same, or 'slip-hammer'?

Thank you both, for the input here. B)

OLG

When I have had go arounds and there was not a mechanical failure of the gun, it has always been operator error. My timing was off or my technique was bad. Lock time has never been a contributing factor for me. Also, I pull the trigger for the first shot on each target and depending on other factors, sometimes slip hammer multiple shots on the same target. One pair of my pistols is short stroked and the other is not. I believe Deuce runs full stroke pistols.

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I'm certain the rifle has to be set up for the shooter........or it can be outran.......and I have done it. I was at a match and had to borrow a rifle because I trashed another italium lever on a 73. The rifle I used was 73 with a lever safety and had a very light hammer used by one of those thumb planter shooters who are very popular in these parts. Thanks by the way!

 

He could shoot the rifle very close to my split times.....if not equal and the rifle ran like a dream for him. I didn't have time to test fire it so I used it in the next stage. I threw 3 or 4 rounds out that were heavily dimpled but didn't fire. Remember the gun had a lever safety so it wasn't a "timing" or lack of timing or me not hitting the trigger or they wouldn't have that heavy dimple. They had what I call a ghost strike....just a very light scratch from the momentum of the firing pin overpowering the firing pin spring and hitting the primer but not enough to dent the primer let alone fire those soft little federal 100's.

 

All of us came to the conclusion the hammer was too slow so I asked if I could turn it up. I turned the main screw two turns at least.......maybe three (this was several years ago) and since my match was trashed I didn't test fire it again. The next stage (and the rest of the match) it ran like a Swiss watch. I think it has to do with how long and/or when you pull the trigger in the your particular cycle. I hit the trigger right as the lever closes whereas many roll down the face of the trigger and keep the lever closed longer. I really couldn't tell you for sure what's causing it unless we get a high speed camera and film it........but I can tell it happened.

 

There are a lot of great shooters here saying it's not possible but again maybe they have similar styles? Something is happening.........good conversation.

 

 

I can't speak about the pistols because I'm still learning how to shoot them.......lol

Edited by Cowboy Junky

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About 12 years ago there was a famous, now infamous, cowboy shooter that, usually, broke his Ruger Vaqueros with annual regularity. He ran heavy mainsprings because he would catch the hammer. There were problems with the 73' that he ran that seemed to be similar. Awesome shooter at the time. His legacy includes being remembered for wining 9 out of 10 stages at MuleCamp and losing the match. Boy, could he have train wrecks.

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In my personal and totally unbiased opinon, anyone with that problem is not using enough black powder. What they need to do is after shooting is

swiftly bring their guns back down from pointing at the sky and, then, shooting again.

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About 12 years ago there was a famous, now infamous, cowboy shooter that, usually, broke his Ruger Vaqueros with annual regularity. He ran heavy mainsprings because he would catch the hammer. There were problems with the 73' that he ran that seemed to be similar. Awesome shooter at the time. His legacy includes being remembered for wining 9 out of 10 stages at MuleCamp and losing the match. Boy, could he have train wrecks.

May I ask who this was? :huh:

Tried to PM you, but sez you can't rec any. :wacko:

OLG

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These days, I'd have a hard time outrunning a tortoise with a gun......a gun leaning in a stand, a much better chance.

 

 

Agree with Deuce and Cowboy Junky.......hope to see ya'll at The Ides.

 

CS

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