Shiloh Sharps vs. C. Sharps

[Cyrus Cassidy #45437]

You may recall a post earlier about saving for the Pedersoli Sharps. However, I've been doing more and more research as I get closer to having the gold to make the purchase, and I'm now convinced that it is worth the extra money to have either a C. Sharps or a Shiloh instead of the Pedersoli. So I'm continuing to wait and save -- these aren't cheap guns!

 

My question is, which one?

 

I hear quality is on par with each other, so it comes down to which options I want (and a LOOOONG production wait).

 

Shiloh's web site says something about, "home of the Shiloh Sharps black powder rifle." I know these guns were intended for the Holy Black, BPCR shooting, etc., but are they also proofed for smokeless?

 

I like pistol grip stocks, and it seems Shiloh has a few more of those available. From my research, it seems in the late 1870s when these were originally being made, people had the notion that pistol grip stocks were weaker, and thus were only found in target models; the "scouts" employed by the military likely would not have had them. But I don't care, I like them.

 

Which sights to use? One pard told me absolutely get the bubble level on the front sight for long distance shooting. My current gun club only goes to 600 yards, but in time I'd like to go out to 1000.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Cyrus Cassidy #45437

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

Not trying to be a smart a$$ but the subject comes up often. Read all this and get back to us. Google is your friend!

 

So far as the Number One vs # 3 the pistol grip versions are easier to shoot off the bench and provide somewhat better recoil control. If you get a 3 get one with the shotgun butt if you select a thumper. Heck, they are pretty much all thumpers with heavy bullets. Get the best sights available.

 

Shiloh warrants their rifles for smokeless provided its a caliber for which there are SAAMI standards. That will cover the 45-70 but nothing else in the way of original rounds. So other than the 45 Govt you're on your own.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Yellowhouse Sam # 25171

[Tom Bullweed]

Take a look at the Ballard website ballardarms.com.

I nearly short out my keyboard when I visit that sight.

Why have a Sharps like most other shooters?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Shiloh makes everything in their rifles, including the barrel.

They own their own foundry.

They do sell MVA sights.

The wood is brought in from Missouri.

https://shilohrifle.com/

I use a #1, 30" heavy bbl, in .45-90 for long-range competition. The #1 has less stock drop which is what you need as you crank the rear sight up, for longer range.

Sights are a MVA, long range Buffalo Soule and a #113 from sight with 'lollypop' inserts

https://montanavintagearms.com/sights/

OLG

Edited January 8, 2017 by The Original Lumpy Gritz

[Hashknife Cowboy]

I'm sold on Shiloh.....I have shot both smokeless and BP out of my 45-70. It is a amazing rifle, there is a second one in my future. I sold my Pedersoli Sharps once the rifle arrived. I love it for elk hunting. I have no experience with C. Sharps.

[Charlie Harley, #14153]

I have two Shilohs. One in 45-110 and one 38-55. Love them both dearly.

 

I prefer the rifle with the pistol grip. The straight stock is somewhat awkward on the wrist for extended shooting sessions.

 

I must say though that Shiloh does not make their own barrels for all rifles. When I bought my last one in 38–55, I called the factory and they said they were waiting or in the barrel to arrive from the manufacturer. It did kind of irritate me since their website still says that they do make all their own barrels.

 

I don't shoot long-range with the rifles so can't comment on sight selection.

 

Being a Shiloh owner, I cannot say a bad thing about the C Sharps rifles either. They are beautiful works of art and I have heard nothing but good things from those who own them. It comes down to who has what features that you like, at what price

, and what delivery time.

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

May as well admit I'm biased toward Shiloh too.

[Three Foot Johnson]

Shiloh. That said, although the Shiloh is very accurate, my Pedersoli is consistently a bit more accurate, and is the one I use for long range side matches.

 

Buy decent sights. A bubble level front globe is mandatory if you expect to be competitive at the longer ranges. Setting up the sights can be quite time consuming - the tang sight mast needs to be perfectly perpendicular to the action and the bubble level front sight needs to be perfectly level in relation to the mast. If the mast isn't perfectly perpendicular to the action and at a perfect right angle to the bubble level, the point of impact can move substantially to the left or right as the eyepiece is moved up the mast for progressively longer shots.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Actually, you want the rear tang sight mast to 'tilt' about 2*-3* towards the muzzle. This is done to keep a clear sight picture at the farther ranges. You do want the mast of the tang sight to be absolutely square, from side to side with no play in the mast.

You also will want to set a mechanical windage "0" at about 300-400 yds. This is done by setting the rear tang sight on "0" windage and center the groups by moving the front sight in the dovetail. Move the front sight the opposite direction you want the group to move.

I highly recommend a Hadley type eye-cup for the tang sight.

OLG

[Knarley Bob]

I have a Pedersoli Quiggley in 45-70. It has been re-stocked with custom "Myrtel" wood and has a "Kelly" tang sight on it. Soon it will be getting a "Kelly" front sight which has a bubble inside it.

That being said, next fall, (I hope) a Shilo sharps "Saddle Rifle" in 38-55 will be arriving. It too will be out fitted with Kelly sights.

Neither of them will taste "Smokeless" powder while under my care. I have a couple Marlins in 38-55 that will be smokeeless guns tho..........

 

I'm not saying you are making the right or wrong decision by waiting, and I know that it's a hard thing to do. But on the bright side, if you go with the Shilo, you will have at least 18 more months to save your gold.

You seem to be a level headed young man, and I wish you well in your endeavours. If I can be of any assisstance, give me a holler.

 

Knarley

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

I have a Pedersoli Quiggley in 45-70. It has been re-stocked with custom "Myrtel" wood and has a "Kelly" tang sight on it. Soon it will be getting a "Kelly" front sight which has a bubble inside it.

That being said, next fall, (I hope) a Shilo sharps "Saddle Rifle" in 38-55 will be arriving. It too will be out fitted with Kelly sights.

Neither of them will taste "Smokeless" powder while under my care. I have a couple Marlins in 38-55 that will be smokeeless guns tho..........

 

I'm not saying you are making the right or wrong decision by waiting, and I know that it's a hard thing to do. But on the bright side, if you go with the Shilo, you will have at least 18 more months to save your gold.

You seem to be a level headed young man, and I wish you well in your endeavours. If I can be of any assisstance, give me a holler.

 

Knarley

Sage advice. Do some research while youre waiting. After you put down the deposit with Shiloh you'll have approximately a year to change details including caliber.

 

Some final thoughts. I think Shiloh will be around a long time. Current barrels are as good as anyones if not better. Ive never seen a Bryan era Shiloh with anything but perfect wood to metal fit. I cant say the same for C. Sharps.

[Guest Grass Range #51406]

I have both. One is no better than the other

[Cyrus Cassidy #45437]

For 1000 yard shooting, is there an advantage .45-90 has over the .45-70? Yes, I know there are 20 more grains of powder, but is it more accurate? If I use the .45-70 couldn't I just dial up the rear site a bit more?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

The .45-90 carries better against the wind, with it's higher MV.

If you use a 3F load of real BP, .45-70 will work well to 1K yds. The '90 just makes it easier is all.

The pistol grip stock, is a great aid in controlling the torque twist of recoil over a straight stock.

If you go with paper-patch bullets. The '70 will work just fine to 1k+ yds. That said, I shoot a grease groove 540gn Paul Jones Creedmoor bullet in 30:1 alloy.

Accurate BPCR reloading is the PHD of the reloading world.

OLG

[Cyrus Cassidy #45437]

The .45-90 carries better against the wind, with it's higher MV.

If you use a 3F load of real BP, .45-70 will work well to 1K yds. The '90 just makes it easier is all.

The pistol grip stock, is a great aid in controlling the torque twist of recoil over a straight stock.

If you go with paper-patch bullets. The '70 will work just fine to 1k+ yds. That said, I shoot a grease groove 540gn Paul Jones Creedmoor bullet in 30:1 alloy.

Accurate BPCR reloading is the PHD of the reloading world.

OLG

Thanks, LG. I contacted Shiloh, and was told the .45-70 is the *only* caliber they offer which is guaranteed for use with smokeless ammo. I had planned on shooting both smokeless (sacrilege, I know), and The Holy Black.

[Knarley Bob]

I don't know if this s correct, but I have never seen any loads with smokeless for those big postells one would use at the longer ranges.

Nothing wrong with smokeless,I shoot it in other guns. But the sound and the fire out of a "Buff" gun is just too cool.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

That Shiloh will shoot it's best with BP.

BP is easier to clean up than Smokeless.

Very good BP cleaner is Windex multi-surface with vinegar.

With the Shiloh .45cal, 1/18 ROT. The barrel really likes the heavy bullets(500-550gn).

At Shiloh, ask for Kirk or Lucinda(owners). Both hunt with, and shoot competitively with the guns they make.

FWIW: My first Shiloh was a 34" bbl Hartford in .45-70. Shoots like a LASER.

My competition gun is a #1, .45-90, 30" hvy bbl. It too is a LASER.

Both of my Shiloh's run MVA sights. Soule tang, w/#113 front.

Cry one time and don't go the cheap on sights.

OLG

[Cyrus Cassidy #45437]

That Shiloh will shoot it's best with BP.

BP is easier to clean up than Smokeless.

Very good BP cleaner is Windex multi-surface with vinegar.

With the Shiloh .45cal, 1/18 ROT. The barrel really likes the heavy bullets(500-550gn).

At Shiloh, ask for Kirk or Lucinda(owners). Both hunt with, and shoot competitively with the guns they make.

FWIW: My first Shiloh was a 34" bbl Hartford in .45-70. Shoots like a LASER.

My competition gun is a #1, .45-90, 30" hvy bbl. It too is a LASER.

Both of my Shiloh's run MVA sights. Soule tang, w/#113 front.

Cry one time and don't go the cheap on sights.

OLG

I've been reading up on the sights. I think the long range buffalo and the #113 will do me; I like having the large amount of windage adjustment.

 

I'm also wondering about .45-70 vs. .45-90. The latter is *not* proofed for smokeless rounds, but the former is. So, assuming black powder rounds, do I need the extra 20 grains to get me out to 1000 yards accurately, with the heavier bullets you mentioned? Being able to shoot a smokeless load with the .45-70 is attractive to me.

 

Dunno...I have about $1400 to go, so I have awhile to ponder it.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

I only shoot REAL BP in my Shiloh's, Old Eynsford 2F is used in both my '70 & '90.

You'll reach 1k yds and more, to the same point of impact with more consistency, in varying/changing conditions with the .45-90 than the '70. The 90 is a great 'do-all' round using BP.

Think about this-You are doing well to get close to 1200 fps vel with the '70 at the 34" bbl's muzzle w/BP.

I'm run'n over 1350 fps with the '90 at the 30" bbl's muzzle using BP.

These big slugs drop MV, PDQ. They have the trajectory of a football.

I'm compressing my BP powder about 3/8" with a special die.

You will not get 70gn of powder in a .45-70 case or 90gn in a .45-90 case using a GG bullet. The cases made today are far different(thicker/stronger/safer)than back in the day.

The BP made today is different also, than back then. Different wood(Alder is the best)and moisture content.

Your choice of sights is excellent! I would only have you add a Hadley eyecup to allow for varying/changing light conditions.

I order all of my BP from here. Great folks to deal with The price shown, is the 'to your door' price with ship'n and HAZ-MAT.

https://powderinc.com/black-powder/

OLG

Edited January 10, 2017 by The Original Lumpy Gritz