Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum
Sign in to follow this  
Dorado

Derringer question

Recommended Posts

If you are looking for a QUALITY derringer that looks and feels like the classic Remington, the American Derringer is your huckleberry!

 

I have one of their M1 derringers in stainless. Mine is a .45 cal and will also shoot .410 shot shells as well. I've run two shot times as low as .67 seconds with both shots being hits on a target at 5 yds.! It goes bang every time and mine will even slip hammer when called on to do so.

 

I spoke with the folks at AD and they are still in business and offer a quality product in several calibers and MANY different levels of appearance!!

Edited by Blackwater 53393

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blackwater! That's what I'm talking about! I've put in a request to my local toy shop to see if they can find one for me. Made in Waco, Texas I see. That's just fine by me! I can certainly work up a load for that. I have dies for .45 I believe. I'm sure I can make that work.

Can you index the barrels? What I mean is, can you pick which barrel fires first?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Every time you cock the hammer the firing pin moves from one barrel to the other. You could theoretically look at which firing pin is exposed and manipulate the hammer until you got it set to fire a particular barrel. It is not an over/under shotgun. One barrel isn't full and the other modified. It does not have a barrel selector switch. Out of curiosity what possible difference would it make which barrel fires first?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Every time you cock the hammer the firing pin moves from one barrel to the other. You could theoretically look at which firing pin is exposed and manipulate the hammer until you got it set to fire a particular barrel. It is not an over/under shotgun. One barrel isn't full and the other modified. It does not have a barrel selector switch. Out of curiosity what possible difference would it make which barrel fires first?

In a derringer side match, I always set the lower barrel to fire first. The lower bore axis causes less perceived recoil and less barrel flip than the higher one will. Leverage is the biggest difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Every time you cock the hammer the firing pin moves from one barrel to the other. You could theoretically look at which firing pin is exposed and manipulate the hammer until you got it set to fire a particular barrel. It is not an over/under shotgun. One barrel isn't full and the other modified. It does not have a barrel selector switch. Out of curiosity what possible difference would it make which barrel fires first?

Only on longer range shots. Close range it does not matter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Only on longer range shots. Close range it does not matter.

 

I have manned the derringer/pocket pistol side match at EOT for years and cannot recall anyone selecting the barrel. The target is only two feet away so the winner is determined by who can retrieve the gun off the table the fastest and who can then also manipulate the hammer the quickest. I like Smokestack's theory and he is experienced. But 99.99% of derringer shooters I see at side matches don't have the expertise for shooting a derringer where firing the lower barrel first would make any difference. The OP says he has never fired a derringer and knows nothing about them. I was more interested in why he perceives selecting a barrel to be relevant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I have manned the derringer/pocket pistol side match at EOT for years and cannot recall anyone selecting the barrel. The target is only two feet away so the winner is determined by who can retrieve the gun off the table the fastest and who can then also manipulate the hammer the quickest. I like Smokestack's theory and he is experienced. But 99.99% of derringer shooters I see at side matches don't have the expertise for shooting a derringer where firing the lower barrel first would make any difference. The OP says he has never fired a derringer and knows nothing about them. I was more interested in why he perceives selecting a barrel to be relevant.

I reckon I'm not as experienced as you and Smokestack, I've only run pocket pistol/derringer side matches for 20 years and I have a box full of plaques for winning with them. When shooting the derringer from 3-5 yards it does make a difference. Last time I was at EOT there was a shotgun included with the derringer/pocket pistol side match, that was 2005. Try shooting a derringer at 25 yards it makes quite a difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Derringers I have three: Cobra .22, EIG Italy .22mag, Davis .38.

 

Use Davis .38 for competition and yep won with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Every time you cock the hammer the firing pin moves from one barrel to the other. You could theoretically look at which firing pin is exposed and manipulate the hammer until you got it set to fire a particular barrel. It is not an over/under shotgun. One barrel isn't full and the other modified. It does not have a barrel selector switch. Out of curiosity what possible difference would it make which barrel fires first?

From the MANY reviews and articles I've been reading on many derringers, Bonds included, one barrel will shoot differently from the other. Some have said as much as a 12" difference at card table distances while using a mount. Being able to select barrels would grant me the ability to shoot the same way I practice. Shooting the barrels in sequence versus shooting whatever barrel hits first.

Edited by Dorado

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Twelve inches out of a rest at two feet! Who'd a thunk it. At any rate you said you like the American Derringer. Americans do not have a rebounding hammer so one way to "select" the barrel is to look at the breech face when the barrels are open. If the firing pin is sticking out of the top hole the bottom barrel will fire first. If it is sticking out of the bottom hole the top barrel will fire first. After the first two shots it will continue to fire in the same order. (Unless you slip hammer or somthing else causes the hammer not to come fully back and the pins get out of sequence.) Another way is to look at the pivot in the hammer face. If you look carefully you can see what postion it is in and after a while you can tell what pin it is going to hit. One thing with American Derringers is that since they do not have rebounding hammers you have to make absolutely sure the hammer is placed on half-cock before closing the barrels with rounds loaded in them. Otherwise you could get a nice surprise.

 

Bottom firing pin protruding so the top barrel will be the next to fire.

 

P1080841_zpslh68msxg.jpg

Edited by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

None of my 6 barrels puts their two shots anywhere close to 12" apart at "card table" distances. Perhaps as much as 8" or so at 25 yards, but not at 1 yard!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I need to find the Youtube video again. They had a gun vise set up with the derringer in the grips. First shot was high and right about 4" from center the second barely hit the paper on the left. Still high. If I recall correctly, range was about 5-6 feet. I don't remember the brand of derringer but it was a very small one. They tested several different ones. Bond did well, Cobra did alright as well. I don't recall the other 3. I did not hear American Derringer on the list.

 

My LGS is looking for an American Derringer. I'm aware of the non-rebounding hammer. I'll be careful about it. Won't be carrying it anyways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the American Derringer, you put the safety on when loading. This prevents the hammer from touching either firing pin.

 

I think if you contact the folks at AD, they will maybe ship to your dealer.

Edited by Blackwater 53393

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the American Derringer, you put the safety on when loading. This prevents the hammer from touching either firing pin.

 

I think if you contact the folks at AD, they will maybe ship to your dealer.

Oh yeah! I forgot it has a safety. The safety automatically disengages when the hammer is pulled isn't that right? I might actually use that one then. I've only ever used safeties while hunting or my 1911 when carrying it.

 

My LGS will contact them. I'll call them tomorrow and see what I can find out as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

won a regional side match with a borrowed Bond so obviously thats what I had to have, have won several more since BUT the last several years have not seen deringer side matches as often as I used to. Would still go with Bond if I wanted a deringer, have owned and sold several other brands over the years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just hate how big Bond derringers are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a 22 High Standard derringer that can be shot either double action or single action. Would this be legal in a match if only the single action mode was used?

 

…Too Tall...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just hate how big Bond derringers are.

I do too. That's why I'm looking into the American Derringer. It's much smaller and more in line with the old Remington Double Derringer. It's still a bit big but not nearly as large as the Bonds.

 

I have a 22 High Standard derringer that can be shot either double action or single action. Would this be legal in a match if only the single action mode was used?

 

…Too Tall...

I think it has to be SA only. Scratch that, no mention in the rules.

 

From Shooter's handbook page 18
POCKET PISTOLS AND DERRINGERS
Pocket pistols and Derringers are popular for use in side matches and are occasionally introduced as an additional firearm in main match stages.
A pocket pistol is a small frame, fixed sight, pre-1900 design revolver having a barrel length of four inches or less. Pocket pistols must be .31 caliber or larger. Model "P" Colts and clones and revolvers with swing out cylinders are specifically not allowed regardless of
caliber, frame size, or barrel length. Pocket pistols may not be used as or converted to main match revolvers.
A Derringer is defined as an external hammer, fixed sight, breech loading or percussion
ignition, small frame pre-1900 design firearm having one to four barrels up to three and one-half inches long. Derringers must be .22 caliber or larger. The Remington style over/under barrel configuration and the Sharps four-barreled Pepperbox are typical SASS–legal Derringers.
- .22 Magnum ammunition is not allowed
Edited by Dorado

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Every time you cock the hammer the firing pin moves from one barrel to the other. You could theoretically look at which firing pin is exposed and manipulate the hammer until you got it set to fire a particular barrel. It is not an over/under shotgun. One barrel isn't full and the other modified. It does not have a barrel selector switch. Out of curiosity what possible difference would it make which barrel fires first?

I'm more or less in agreement with you on which barrel fires first at a side match. Doubt it matters much.

 

I did have a Bond in 45/410 I could see where you might want to select if you had 45 on 1 barrel and 410 In the other, for defensive purposes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do too. That's why I'm looking into the American Derringer. It's much smaller and more in line with the old Remington Double Derringer. It's still a bit big but not nearly as large as the Bonds.

 

Just to make sure I'm looking at the right company, American Derringer's website is http://www.amderringer.com right? Because that website looks about ten years out of date. I am having trouble finding any real information about their products or the differences between them.

Edited by Houston CAS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Just to make sure I'm looking at the right company, American Derringer's website is http://www.amderringer.com right? Because that website looks about ten years out of date. I am having trouble finding any real information about their products or the differences between them.

That's what I'm seeing. Not a big company. But if I can get a decent product then I'll be happy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone have both a American derringer and a Bond derringer that can post a photo of them side-by-side?

Edited by Houston CAS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just found out that the AD Derringers are nearly $700 with a 12 week wait time! That's a bit rich for my blood to be honest. I can get a Bond for half that right now maybe less if I can find a used one. I'd like to find one with the competition kit if possible. Bond is now back in the running!

Anyone get the Comp kit in their Bond? How did you get it installed and what did it cost?

 

 

http://www.amderringer.com/pix/amderrprice.pdf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, that price list is from 2008. I wonder if they are even still in business? I haven't seen a new one on a dealer's shelf in a long time.

Yeah... has me worried too. If I buy one, even at a good price, and it dies on me. How am I going to get parts?

 

I looked up the width on the Bonds. They vary depending on grips but 1 1/4" to 1 1/2".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, that price list is from 2008. I wonder if they are even still in business? I haven't seen a new one on a dealer's shelf in a long time.

 

I spoke to them late last week. Yes!! Open for business

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I bought my Bond with the competition kit installed by the factory.

 

The gun is awesome. I have used it in every match that had a derringer side match.

 

I have absolutely no idea what I paid BUT I bought them so long ago that the number would be meaningless!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I bought my Bond with the competition kit installed by the factory.

 

The gun is awesome. I have used it in every match that had a derringer side match.

 

I have absolutely no idea what I paid BUT I bought them so long ago that the number would be meaningless!!!

I just talked to Bond Arms about the competition kit. They said that the competition kit is standard on all new guns now. That's great. That'll save me $150 so that's money I can put into ammo and other fun things.

I'm going to contact American Derringers and see if that price sheet is accurate or not. If it is I'll just go with a Bond the size bothers me but I know I'd have a safe and reliable gun.

I tried calling ADC, the store phone number has been disconnected and the other number gets me the voicemail of an Elizabeth. I sent them an email so I'm hoping for a response.

Edited by Dorado
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If not for this thread, I would totally forgotten about my Derringer I have at the bottom of my cabinet. Haven't shot it in at least 8 years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If not for this thread, I would totally forgotten about my Derringer I have at the bottom of my cabinet. Haven't shot it in at least 8 years.

BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!!! How dare you not show a gun some love! As a gun rights advocate I must free that poor neglected baby!

 

 

lol

Edited by Dorado

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an AD in 38 and a Bond Mini in 45.

 

The AD is a very nice gun and does resemble the original Remington. With the AD you must remember to manually set the safety on before closing the gun. The safety automatically disengages when cocked. The AD I have only hits half the top firing pin with the hammer shuttle. It finally broke and wouldn't fire the top barrel. Ordered a replacement part and it only engages half the top firing pin. I have examined 2 other AD 38"s at gun shows and they had the same issue. However it is a beautiful gun and I had mine engraved by Kelley Lassiter and put real elephant ivory grips on it. Very beautiful river boat gambler gun now.

 

The Bond Mini 45 is about the same size as the AD. The Bond Mini has shorter barrels and is slightly heavier. Recoil on the 45 Colt Mini is stiff but controllable. I'm going to order 38 barrels for it. With the rebounding hammers you don't have to engage the safety before closing the gun. But with the Bond it is manual on and manual off safety. I haven't encountered a weakness with the Bond. The Bond might come with the competition kit installed but I still cut 2 coils off the main spring to improve hammer pull. The Bond still fires reliably.

 

Shooting a 16" plate target at 5 yds isn't an issue with either gun. Barrels do shoot to different points of impact on both guns but not enough to be an issue at 5 yds. I do prefer the Bond Mini over the AD. I do like derringers and have shot both of mine a lot but not in competition. I just shoot them at the range plinking etc. sometimes as many as 200 rounds through each gun.

 

I will take some pictures of the guns side by side. Never have posted pictures before but if I can't figure it out I will email pictures to folks that know how.

 

Whiskey

Edited by Whiskey Hayes #41999

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.