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Pit Bull Tex

How do you fix something wrong in the chamber of of a rossi 44-40?

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I have pictures if what it does to the case when you fire a round or just put a empty case on and close the action.It is really messing up the cases.Can the chamber be cleaned up with the barrel still on the action?I have only shot one round and then put a empty round in it.

Edited by Pit Bull Tex

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Steve Youngs .

Stevesgunz.com the 92 specialest :-)

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I sent Steve the pictures late last night.

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I can send to phone or email.I still can't post here.

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Without pictures of the 'brass' damage and the chamber. No way to can we comment.

Can you describe(in detail)the brass damage you speak of?

OLG

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I don't like gunsmiths using the term "cleaned up" when they mean they have to remove metal. It misleads the shooting public into thinking problems with machining are always "just a cleanup". Without pictures, it's hard to say what the fix will have to be, but if you are gouging brass just chambering a round, it's going to be a gunsmith job!

 

Ok, with that out of the way. If there is a gouge below the surface of where the chamber walls should be, that's really tough to remove. A new barrel, a barrel reline or a chamber reline (which isn't done often) are obvious ways to give the barrel back enough metal to cut a clean chamber.

 

If there is a badly cut (partially finished) chamber, it might be possible to remove just a little with a finishing reamer. But it is SO much easier to do chamber reaming with the barrel dismounted from the receiver, I don't think any gunsmith would try to ream while barrel is mounted.

 

If there is just a burr at the entry of the chamber, that can be removed with CAREFUL work with a die grinder or Dremel tool.

 

All depends upon what the damage to the chamber is!

 

 

Now, IF this is a factory new gun, you have a warranty claim. Let the factory decide how to fix it, unless you are wanting to pay someone to fix it because you don't want for Rossi to get to it. If this is one you bought used from a pard, I'd be talking with the feller about the "undisclosed damage" and how he will be helping you get it fixed. Unless he made it clear that the gun was not suitable to be fired without work on it.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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...when you fire a round or just put a empty case on and close the action.It is really messing up the cases.

Since you failed to explain 'messing up the cases' - a SWAG.

* Take a wire brush and thoroughly clean the chamber

* 1st WAG - the cases are being scraped when the are chambered

* So, take a magic marker and run 4 lines down the case - let the ink dry

* Chamber the case or the round - extract it and see where the ink is scraped off

* Your issue is probably the cases are not full length sized or the diameter of the bullet is too large - the case scraping at the mouth

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I do not think it had been shot when I bought it.I bought it off the wire.I think it was new old stock.Don't think the cowboy would have sold it knowing there was something wrong.

Edited by Pit Bull Tex

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or the diameter of the bullet is too large - the case scraping at the mouth

That was gonna be my question, what size dia. bullet are you using. I don't know what Rossi likes. Uberti 73 are mostly .429 with originals at .427 (heard the new Win were 427) I couldn't get my rounds to come close to chambering in origional, had to resize to .427. Good Luck :)

 

Jefro

Relax-Enjoy

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I slugged the barrel and it slugged .430 the only rounds I have are win. 230 gr cowboy RNFP that are .427 at the case.I marked around with a marked and mark the top and it scraped the top almost all the way.When you put a case in the chamber or fire a round it screws up both side of the case.

Edited by Pit Bull Tex

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I slugged the barrel and it slugged .430 the only rounds I have are win. 230 gr cowboy RNFP that are .427 at the case.I marked around with a marked and mark the top and it scraped the top almost all the way.When you put a case in the chamber or fire a round it screws up both side of the case.

I hate to say it but this explanation is basically incomprehensible. I have never seen a factory loaded round with a 230 grain bullet. Are these reloads? Basically what you have said is "help, my car is making a noise. What is it?"

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When you put a case in the chamber or fire a round it screws up both side of the case.

 

Again-This means nut'n to someone that can't see the object in question. :unsure:

Describe in detail, what this damage is............

OLG

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You are right Mr.Pettifogger,they are 225gr not 230.Mr. Gritz ,the top and bottom are pushed in a little and a small spot on the bottom is push out.

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Tex,

It isn't something you can fix. Unless you have some really trick tools. The barrel will have to come out of the receiver. You may also want to talk to Rossi and send them nice sharp in focus of your case. If it's a manufacturing defect, Rossi may want to fix it. My other suggestion would be Steve Young. Steve at one time was Rossi's USA Warranty repair.

 

Either way, your going to be sending the gun away to somebody.

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Are these ding'd up rounds be'n cycled through the action?

Try just dropping a round into the empty chamber. Does it go all the way in?

Now-close the action and eject the round. What does it look like?

OLG

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This might be a dumb question but are you sure there isn't a sleeve in the chamber left behind by a casing that ripped apart inside the chamber when a bad case was extracted?

I had this happen once with some brass that had been reloaded one too many times. When I ejected the case most of the case came out but left behind was about .15" of the end of the casing.

The next round in got mangled and then subsequent empty cases fed in during troubleshooting were damaged almost exactly as you describe. It took a very stout 90 degree pick to get the brass sleeve out and I had to be very careful not to gouge the chamber. I blunted the pick by grinding off a little bit of the tip so it was dull. This was in a Winchester 94 many years ago.

 

Almost forgot. It took 2 picks to get it out. I had to use a straight pick and get it between the case piece and pry it up before I could use the 90 degree pick to pluck it out.

 

This may not be your problem but if it is you could fix it yourself and not have to ship it.

Edited by Pat Riot, SASS #13748

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I can send to phone or email.I still can't post here.

Pit Bull, without pictures posted on the Wire, it's like a cat chasing it's tail. So it's not a function of you can't post pictures, it's a function that you don't want to learn how to that is fully explained here ... http://www.sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=219914

Then post the pictures to show the details asked below

BTW, the how to thread has been read 12,337 times - Join the Club! :D

 

I do not think it had been shot when I bought it.I bought it off the wire.

You had best be in touch with the seller and get an honest answer whether or not the rifle you bought from him has a ringed chamber

 

Since you sent pictures to Steve, he'll need some detail answers from you, so let's start:

* Take a bore light from the muzzle and tell us when you see in the chamber, especially if you see a side wall shadow when looking into the chamber

* Cases - full length sized or not ... diameter of web after FL sizing

* Case length

* COL of loaded round

* Diameter of loaded case at the mouth down to the depth of the seated bullet

* Any land engraving on the nose of the bullet with a seated loaded round

 

 

Gritz ,the top and bottom are pushed in a little and a small spot on the bottom is push out.

Hand chamber a loaded round - not from the magazine with the magic marker lines and tell us if there are any differences from your statement to Grits. Then do the same with an empty case

Edited by John Boy

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Get hold of the seller and tell him you're going to send the rifle back to his Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL).

Ask him to fess up.

If he doesn't want to take the rifle back tell him he'll have to pay for repairs.

Don't even THINK about using a Dremel Tool on the rifle!!!

Repeat.....Don't even THINK about using a Dremel Tool on the rifle!!!

Were I you, Tex, I'd listen real hard to the advice of these guys who've tried to help, above.

Without photos, Tex, they're feeling around in the dark.

I'm sorry this happened to you, Tex, with this rifle.

Edited by Cat Brules, SASS #14086

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Thanks Mr, Dave.

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Wow, both of those cases in pic 3 show most of the problem. Appears like there could be something stuck in the chamber right at the mouth. The most common thing that might be would be a chunk of the neck of a fired case that stuck in the front end of the neck area of the chamber. Whatever mangled both of those cases in exactly the same way should EASILY be visible to the naked eye. If you are lucky, it is just a piece of the neck of a case - that could probably be removed with a .45 caliber cleaning brush pushed in from the muzzle. If that doesn't do it, casting the chamber full of Cerrosafe low-temperature-melting alloy and knocking that plug out will normally get it out. That obstruction is dangerous to shoot through and should have been quite obvious to the seller if he took a look down the bore to make sure the gun was safe to sell.

 

Once the obstruction is out, you will need to do a GOOD inspection for damage to the chamber.

 

I've had a feller try to sell me a ringed barrel rifle (ringed in two spots, and it was just a .22). It went back immediately to him for a full refund. He squawked a bit, but finally did the right thing.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Tried the .45 brush.I can not see any thing.I just ran 5 cases through it and screwed up some more than others.I really cleaned and brushed in and moped it the bore is spotless but still can't see anything.I will order some Cerrosafe and try that.I want to think the seller would not have sold it knowing it was screwed up.

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Yep, photo 3 looks like what happened to my brass when the end of a shell got stuck in the chamber of my gun. Funny thing was it was hard to see and getting it out was a real pain. I used a wooden stick to probe the chamber and when it hit the edge of the stuck case part I had to disassemble the entire receiver section to get to the case.

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Add to the issue, the shoulders on these reloads are set back too far.

Look at the SAMi case dimensions on page 352 ... http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/Z299-4_ANSI-SAAMI_CFR.pdf

Picture of a properly sized 44-40 ...

 

44-40200-250.jpg

 

PLUS ...LET US KNOW WHAT YOU SEE WHEN YOU LOOK IN THE CHAMBER WITH A BORE LIGHT

Edited by John Boy

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Are you trying to cycle empty brass through the mechanism? I don't see that kind of damage in the first two pictures. With as much damage as is shown in the third photo there is no way that you couldn't see of feel the problem if it were something in the chamber. Seems like a piece of the story is missing.

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How was the rounds feed in the first 2 pictures? They did look bad at all. How did you feed the cases into the chamber from the last picture?

You may well have a participial case neck in the forward section of the chamber/leade area.

DO NOT FIRE THIS RIFLE!

You may well need to get someone with a bore-scope to take a look.

Good luck and keep us posted.

OLG

Edited by The Original Lumpy Gritz

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The top case was a loaded round I loaded in the gate and shot.When I saw the case I unload the rifle and when in the house and ran a empty case that is the bottom case in the 3rd picture.The other two rounds were loaded in the rifle by hand after I marked them.I ran a .45 brush and a .50 brush and it still did the cases like the two in the the 3 rd picture.I ran 20 empty cases and the were all messed up some more than other.When you look in the chamber you can see where the case necks down and then there is a ring about maybe less than 3 /32" wide right at the riffling.I tried to feel it with a small piece of wire but I can't feel it.

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Take a .452 or .454 lead ball and drive down from the muzzle through the chamber. Use pure, soft lead. If you or someone you shoot with don't have any balls for a cap and ball 44, go to the tackle shop and get a half inch diameter lead sinker. It sure sounds like there is a neck from a seperated round of brass stuck in that chamber.

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I have slugged the barrel with a .454 ball two times.Going to do it again.

Edited by Pit Bull Tex

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Please say if you dropped the empty into the chamber OR tried to feed through the rifle.

That case mouth damage is common when trying to cycle empty brass through a Browning designed, repeating rifle.

OLG

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Pit Bull - I seriously believe all the issue relate to the shoulders on the reloads set back too far. And possibly, the cases are too long. Get out your calipers and do some measurements:

* SAMMI Case length length is... 1.313

* The shoulder ends at 0.3046" back from the end of the case - 1.313

* The leade (throat) in the chamber is 0.1624". If the cases are too long, a good probability the 3rd case with the 2 dents results from the cases being too long - jamming into the throat

* The scratches on the case bodies in picture 1 and 2 are results of the shoulders set too far back

In this whole thread, the issue is being blamed on the chamber. But NADA has been determined whether or not the cases for the reloads are the correct length and the shoulder dimensions are correct. Let's go back to the basics - the cases and be sure the cases are full length sized before any measurement

Edited by John Boy

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MR. John Boy the cases that I ran through the chamber are head stamped with 2 stars and a line between the stars.They are 1.295 to 1.298.The other measurement I don't know what your talking about.I just ran 2 .454 round ball through and the ring is still there and it still screws up the cases.

Edited by Pit Bull Tex

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When you look in the chamber you can see where the case necks down and then there is a ring about maybe less than 3 /32" wide right at the riffling

 

You have found the problem (most likely). Now to find a solution.

 

Driving that soft lead ball (just like you were slugging the barrel) down from muzzle has a good chance of working. If it is not catching the ring, you may have to upset the ball right in the throat/mouth area. That takes a stout 3/8 inch wood dowel thorugh the barrel, and a short stub of oak dowel in the closed chamber, about 1.20" long (just shorter than a case length). Drive ball most of way down barrel, then insert stub into the chamber and close action. Drive ball until it does not move and upsets against the stub rod. Then open action and drive ball out of chamber, hopefully catching "the brass ring"!

 

Cerrocast has a good chance of working, if there are any rough surfaces on the ring for it to catch.

 

Letting a gunsmith fish it out - has a great chance of working. They will try all the tricks - perhaps including tapping a chamber roughing reamer into the inside of that ring and using it like an easy out.

 

As to those mouth dents (the same shape every time more or less) being caused by too long a case length - almost zero chance. Being caused by feeding through action, might be. Except for evidence on the the empty case you say you "loaded in the rifle by hand" - it also shows the same shape dented mouth! So, that dent was NOT caused by the 92 action working on the case.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

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