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Wyatt

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I recently realized that it has been 2 years since I attended an RO update class. SASS recommends that you take a refresher course every two years to stay current as an RO

 

If it has been over two years should you consider not taking the timer till you have taken a refresher course?

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Simply put, If you are not familiar with the rules, you should not be timing. I'm sure this will go on for two, maybe three pages

Edited by John Barleycorn, SASS #76982

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Don't worry. Keep on running the timer.

 

If you make a bad call at a match, I'm sure one of your pards will be glad to post a WTC right here and you'll "get taught" the errors of your ways.

 

:lol::D

 

I'd ask myself, Self, why haven't you taken a refresher? Then pick up the timer and get to it.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Oh, My.. This one should be good for several hundred posts!!

 

IMHO, taking a refresher course documents to SASS that you SHOULD know the rules and are a qualified CRO/TO. Not all CRO/TO’s are created, some good, some bad, most in the middle, regardless of recent attendance to a RO Class. If you are the type that can READ the manual and keep up with the clarifications/changes, and have good mentors, you really don’t need to take a refresher course other than for documentation reasons. Attendance is a good idea, and a good way to review and discuss recent changes, but if you don’t it doesn’t immediately disqualify you from being a CRO/TO especially at the monthly shoot level.

 

When making any call that isn't a run of the mill ruling, always keep, and consult a copy of the miss flowchart and pocket RO card found in the manual even when you "Think" you know the call..

 

F.S.

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Wyatt,

 

there are many great/good TO's that haven't taken refresher courses in over 2 years.

 

If your posse thinks enough of you to ask your assistance in running the Timer during the day, then I'm sure you still have the right stuff to do the task.

 

Its a 'tall order', but I'm sure you are up to the task (pun intended... hehehehe)

 

 

..........Widder

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If you have been shooting nonstop and follow the rules I would continue on and take the next available class if not then use your judgement. I quit taking the classes since I'm not usually timing or spotting because of my physical abilities and I usually man the ult when not shooting or loading, I normally prepare between shooters.

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There are always a lot of if's in a post like this. The class is only as good as the Black Pin giving the class and of course your desire to learn. The way the rules are administered changes from time to time. The RO committee works hard to keep the "what if's" well defined but if your instructor doesn't work to keep up, then ?. However, you as the TO owe the shooter your very best and the best way to deliver your very best is to attend a rules class every time you can. Don't take it from the same instructor each time and ask questions. Attendance will not make you suddenly better but it will allow you to make fewer mistakes. The what's the call questions on the wire should give you a clue that the rules sometimes need a little light shown on them. In my opinion its better to shine that light at the match not on the forum's pages.

Your mileage may vary.

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I don't see the "recommendation" as an absolute. I read the WTC's on the wire and print out and note the yearly changes in yellow in the three handbooks. My RO pins predate the ones with a year date on them. Condemn me if you will.

 

Fordyce

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It's been several years since I took the RO classes... and by then I'd been playing this game nigh onto 25 years... I was still handed the timer from about my 6th month on... it's hard herding cats... but someone has to do it... Back to WORK Wyatt, shooters are stacking up at the loading table...

 

But... hey, if you have enough other volunteers on your posse's to NOT have to run the timer till you update your RO Pins, go for it! I like to see other take it on, I watch and hopefully learn...

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I deem you good enuff... there. u happy now? bwahahahhahahahahahahaaaaa

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refreshers are nice, but not necessary, especially at a monthly match. at state or higher, it would be a good idea. more importantly, is having a flow chart handy, with rules. then you don't have to "think" you can get the card and figure it out. Everyt shooter ought to take the classes whenever they have an opportunity. I hope to take refresher this spring.

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One has to take RO classes to run the timer? Not to change the subject.....but, should someone who has never taken the classes run the timer?

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One has to take RO classes to run the timer? Not to change the subject.....but, should someone who has never taken the classes run the timer?

At State and above matches, all Range Officers are to be RO-I certified by contract with SASS.

 

Match Director

Range Master

Posse Marshal

Deputy Posse Marshal

Timer Operator

Expediter

Score Keeper

Spotter

Loading/Unloading Officer

Edited by Ace_of_Hearts

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SASS makes all sorts of recommendations that we blissfully ignore. Carry on.

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SASS makes all sorts of recommendations that we blissfully ignore. Carry on.

It is not a recommendation.

It is a required line item in the Contract in order to hold a State or above match.

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Just because you can pass a written test, doesn't mean you may know the rules in the field. Now, if you know the rules in the field, run the timer. Same principle as a spotter calling a hit or a miss.

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Just because you can pass a written test, doesn't mean you may know the rules in the field. Now, if you know the rules in the field, run the timer. Same principle as a spotter calling a hit or a miss.

 

I think this is exactly the thinking that promotes inconsistency when making calls. By taking the course we level the playing field as much as we can. Does that mean there will never be wrong calls made? No we're all human and prone to mistakes. The RO committee and PWB do a great job in clarifying the rules but we will all make an occasional wrong call in the heat of the moment.

 

My thinking if you can't pass a written test, you have no hope in consistently and correctly applying the rules in the heat of the moment. As Ace of Hearts points out that extends to all of the Range Officer duties including spotting and the load and unload tables. He also correctly points out it's a requirement at State and above matches. We do no favours by not following that at our monthly matches. I can't speak for other RO Instructors but I'm always only to happy to find time to run a RO1 or RO II course when asked. I bet I'm not the only instructor that feels that way.

 

Having said that I don't see the 2 years as a hard and fast rule. If you read the newest RO manual and talk to your TG to keep up on any rule changes and clarifications you'll be fine until you can take a course. My experience is that the best RO's are not necessarily the most experienced but they have taken the courses more than once and make it a point to ask questions and discuss the rules on and off the firing line when they are unsure.

GB

Edited by Grey Beard

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I think this is exactly the thinking that promotes inconsistency when making calls. By taking the course we level the playing field as much as we can. Does that mean there will never be wrong calls made? No we're all human and prone to mistakes. The RO committee and PWB do a great job in clarifying the rules but we will all make an occasional wrong call in the heat of the moment.

 

My thinking if you can't pass a written test, you have no hope in consistently and correctly applying the rules in the heat of the moment. As Ace of Hearts points out that extends to all of the Range Officer duties including spotting and the load and unload tables. He also correctly points out it's a requirement at State and above matches. We do no favours by not following that at our monthly matches. I can't speak for other RO Instructors but I'm always only to happy to find time to run a RO1 or RO II course when asked. I bet I'm not the only instructor that feels that way.

 

Having said that I don't see the 2 years as a hard and fast rule. If you read the newest RO manual and talk to your TG to keep up on any rule changes and clarifications you'll be fine until you can take a course. My experience is that the best RO's are not necessarily the most experienced but they have taken the courses more than once and make it a point to ask questions and discuss the rules on and off the firing line when they are unsure.

GB

+1

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With no TG conventions occurring (except mini ones at EOT) the number of rule changes has been throttled down to an acceptable level.

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I deem you good enuff... there. u happy now? bwahahahhahahahahahahaaaaa

 

 

One has to take RO classes to run the timer? Not to change the subject.....but, should someone who has never taken the classes run the timer?

 

One of my top choices at any match

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At State and above matches, all Range Officers are to be RO-I certified by contract with SASS.

 

Match Director

Range Master

Posse Marshal

Deputy Posse Marshal

Timer Operator

Expediter

Score Keeper

Spotter

Loading/Unloading Officer

at the state matches I've been to I've never heard that the spotters, Loading/unloading table officers, expediters or scorekeeper had to be RO trained. Heck at most larger matches in many cases a non-shooting spouse keeps score for the posse. I would agree that TOs/posse marshals etc should be RO I & II at a state level or above match. Not necessarily that it makes them a better TO, but it would generally indicate that they have more experience. I'm thankful top those who are willing to grab the timer at large matches. its a big responsibility. Nobody wants to DQ somebody, even if the shooter clearly earned the penalty.

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I'm still looking for the requirement for all Range Officers to be ROI at state matches and above. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm thick headed and like to read the black and white. The Match Directors guide recommends that the range officers be ROI or ROII.

 

Edits 1 & 2: Found it. It is in the actual contract with SASS. Verbage in the Match Directors guide should be changed to correspond with the contract or change the wording in the contract to be more realistic. By this I mean require the MD, PMs, Match ROs, TOs to have certain certification (be it ROI or ROII). Spotters and scorekeepers should be exempt from this requirement.

 

Still looking,

BS

Edited by Barry Sloe

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At State and above matches, all Range Officers are to be RO-I certified by contract with SASS.

Match Director

Range Master

Posse Marshal

Deputy Posse Marshal

Timer Operator

Expediter

Score Keeper

Spotter

Loading/Unloading Officer

 

 

Believe you have BADLY misinterpreted the definition of "Range Officers" Most of those you have listed are not Range Officers as described in the Range Operations Basic Safety Course (RO I) handbook! The Range Officer (also known as Timer Operator (badly selling short all the responsibility)) is the role, along with the Match Director, that are (alternatively) either recommended or required to be at RO I level of certification for major matches.

 

As has been pointed out, you will not often have spotters who are all RO I level trained, let alone unloading table officers or scorekeepers. NOR do they need to be. The ones we have now :wub: are doing a great job overall!

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

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At State and above matches, all Range Officers are to be RO-I certified by contract with SASS.

 

Match Director

Range Master

Posse Marshal

Deputy Posse Marshal

Timer Operator

Expediter

Score Keeper

Spotter

Loading/Unloading Officer

 

In response to:

"Believe you have BADLY misinterpreted the definition of "Range Officers"

 

 

The way I read the ROI manual, it states:

 

MATCH PROCEDURES AND TERMS

All match positions described below are Range Officers. The Timer Operator is the Chief Range Officer during shooting stage operations.

 

 

And then lists the 9 positions listed above.

(I agree with A.O. Hearts)

Edited by Yusta B.

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At none of the 8 or so WRs and 10 EOTs that I have had the pleasure to have shot in, have these requirements been extended, within any posse I have been on or the posses I have Marshaled, beyond the folks holding the timers. Higher level officials at these matches have certainly been highly qualified.

 

There's what is applied on the field. And that is what matters to the good folks who have run the matches. Then there's - all the rest of the paperwork, which it seems does not really match reality...

 

Most of the confusion seems to stem from the loose, sometimes completely interchangeable, but sometimes differing, use of the terms "Chief Range Officer" and "Range Officer" within the RO I handbook. Then having the Match Contract, which most of us never see, citing "Range Officer" when it probably should be citing "Chief Range Officer" as requiring RO I and II certifications. For example, the (now no longer used) Stage Marshal position is called out as one of the "listed Range Officers" on page 11. Then in the description of his qualifications RO I states:

 

It is recommended each Stage Marshal be a graduate of the SASS RO courses

and for Posse Marshals

 

It is recommended all posse leaders be trained in this Basic Range Operations Course

 

These are the only 2 positions among the "listed Range Officers" which even hint there is a "recommendation" for RO I training in the whole RO I manual.

 

For another illustration of this mixed definition problem, here's a statement from the RO II handbook:

 

References in course material to "Range Officer" are generally meant to refer to those persons in official match positions with official duties (Posse Marshals/Leaders, Stage/Berm Marshals).

 

All in all, it shows the written materials are VERY poorly organized to have a consistent story on who MUST be trained to RO I and RO II levels.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

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I don't disagree with your reasoning at all - just with what's written if that's not with what's meant. :P

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