Black Powder Cartridges: .45 Colt vs. .44-40

[Cat Brules]

Black powder .45 Colt vs. .44-40

 

Let's say these cartridges are period "standard" commercial loadings (I have no idea what that may have been), sold in boxes or some other packaging.

 

Anyway the questions are:

Which of these two cartridges was the more powerful as far as muzzle velocities and stopping power and what were the common bullet weights of the period?

 

Anything else you think is pertinent?

 

Just a curious thought.

 

Thanks in advance...

Cat Brules

[Kid Rich]

Bullet weight is less on the 44-40 and cartridge is about the same size so should be more velocity with it. kR

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

Power wise, I'd deer hunt with either.

Having shot both, the 45 Colt with a full case of 3f and a 250 grain, is considerably more powerful than than any 44-40 I loaded with 200's with a similarly prescribed charge. I doubt 220's would catch up. The 250's with full BP charges in a 5 1/2" revolver are "snappy" and ring steel with much more authority than any 44-40 load I concocted.

However, the 44-40 is more reliable in rifles due to the elimination of much of the blow by. Never could get my 45 rifle to run a smooth and reliable as my 44-40 rifles.

My 92 had less blowby issues than my 66 (both in 45 Colt).

Edited December 10, 2016 by Dirty Dan Dawkins

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

Original 45 colt was loaded with 255 gran. Bullet over 40 gran. Black powder for a 1,050 ft/s Velocity for a 267.8 power factor. 44-40 and a 200 gran. Bullet over 40 gran. Black for a velocity of 1300 ft/s and a 260 pf

Rafe

Edited December 10, 2016 by Rafe Conager SASS #56958

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

Power wise, I'd deer hunt with either.

Having shot both, the 45 Colt with a full case of 3f and a 250 grain, is considerably more powerful than than any 44-40 I loaded with 200's with a similarly prescribed charge. I doubt 220's would catch up. The 250's with full BP charges in a 5 1/2" revolver are "snappy" and ring steel with much more authority than any 44-40 load I concocted.

However, the 44-40 is more reliable in rifles due to the elimination of much of the blow by. Never could get my 45 rifle to run a smooth and reliable as my 44-40 rifles.

My 92 had less blowby issues than my 66 (both in 45 Colt).

 

+2 And the recoil, target reaction is even less with the 38/40.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

Your question is somewhat problematic.

 

First off, although everybody thinks the 45 Colt was loaded with 40 grains of powder, only the very early copper cased, Benet primed, folded rimmed cartridges had enough powder capacity for that large a charge. On top of that, the military reduced the charge to only 30 grains. This is a photo of a box of 45 Colt cartridges from the Frankford arsenal, made in 1874. As you can see, the bullet weight is 250 grains and the powder charge is 30 grains of what I assume is FFg powder. These are copper cased, Benet primed, folded rim rounds. That is why there is no visible centerfire primer.

 

 

 

 

 

Charges in the commercial balloon head cases were limited to about 37-38 grains of FFg. with a 250 grain bullet.

 

 

44-40 was always a Boxer primed round, but I do not know the actual powder capacity of the old balloon head rounds. I tend to doubt they actually carried 40 grains of powder. 200 grains seems to be the earliest bullet weight.

 

Even though I have loaded a bazillion of each of these rounds, I do not have any data for you since I do not own a chronograph, and I only shoot 44-40 from rifles and 45 Colt from revolvers. Not a fair comparison.

 

The best I can do is offer some data Mike Venturino published in his book Shooting Colt Single Actions. He used revolvers with 7 1/2" barrels for both cartridges. Because modern solid head cases do not have the same powder capacity as the old balloon head cases, he was not able to stuff 40 grains into either of these cartridges.

 

So here is Mike's data:

 

45 Colt 250 grain bullet

Test Revolver: Colt SAA 7 1/2" barrel, 1873/1973 Peacemaker Centennial

 

Goex FFg 35.0 Grains, 922 fps Variation 30 fps

Goex FFFg 35.0 Grains, 973 fps Variation 26 fps

Elephant FFg 36 grains, 760 fps Variation 24 fps

Elephant FFFg 36 grains, 853 fps Variation 26 fps

 

 

 

44-40 200 grain bullet

Test Revolver: Colt SAA 7 1/2" barrel, 1873/1973 Peacemaker Centennial

 

Goex FFg 33.0 grains, 936 fps Variation 25 fps

Goex FFFg 33.0 grains, 991 fps Variation 25 fps

Elephant FFg 35.0 grains, 786 fps Variation 33 fps

Elephant FFFg 35.0 grains, 900 fts, Variation 49 fps

 

This is old data, the book was published in 1995, Elephant powder has not been made for a long time.

It is worth noting that not all Black Powder weighs the same. That is why the grain weight for the Elephant charges is larger than the weight for the Goex charges, even though both will take up the same volume. You can also see that the Elephant powder was significantly less energetic than the Goex.

 

Those with higher math skills than me can figure out power factors and all that other stuff.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

You can stomp on a .45 Colt case and not hurt it. You can ruin a .44 WCF reloading it.

 

Most modern reloading manuals recommend 200 grain bullets for the .44 WCF. There are some 220 grain bullets that you can get to work but the 200s seem to work most reliably. I have personally reloaded .45 Colts with 300 grain jacketed bullets to be shot out of an OMV. This is a very accurate load.

 

So, based on what we know in 2016, you can get more power out of the Colt. Not that it matters for CAS.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

I have tested a number of ".45 colts " loads left to me by a Grandad all are from factory loads loaded between the years of 1873 and 1919 , all contain bullets weighing between 255.7 gr. and 259.7 grains , all of these loads Chronograph over 1,000 fps. in his First Gen SAA with a 7 1/2 inch barrel ....

All are Blackpowder loads and not one of the cartridges disassembled contained less than 38.7 grains of powder by weight , the granulation appears to be a close match of Goex 3F powder of 2014 Vintage and in appearance most of it appears to be a perfect match with some "Curtis & Harvey" 3f of 1978 Vintage...

SD in the single didgets is the norm ....

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I load both with 200 grain bullets and an identical charge of powder. With smokeless I observe no significant difference in similar guns. When I load up for lotsa smoke, the .45 does have a bit more snap than the .44.

 

 

That's a nice, practical, unscientific comparison!

Edited December 10, 2016 by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

[Utah Bob #35998]

You can get more noise and smoke from a 45 Colt round.

That's pretty much all I care about.

[John Boy]

45 Long Colt ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Colt

 

44-40 ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44-40_Winchester

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

 

The rumor was that early .45 Colt cartridges had a very minimal rim, and would not eject reliably.

 

That's why I take everything I read on wikipedia with a grain of sand. Who is doing the fact checking for what gets posted on wikipedia?

 

I would like to see the rifle that could reliably extract the six cartridges on the left with those tiny rims. The round all the way on the right is a modern round, and the one next to it is the 1909 round for the New Service revolver. That particular round left the Frankford Arsenal in December of 1912.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2016 by Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283

[Tennessee Stud]

Howdy

 

Your question is somewhat problematic.

 

First off, although everybody thinks the 45 Colt was loaded with 40 grains of powder, only the very early copper cased, Benet primed, folded rimmed cartridges had enough powder capacity for that large a charge. On top of that, the military reduced the charge to only 30 grains. This is a photo of a box of 45 Colt cartridges from the Frankford arsenal, made in 1874. As you can see, the bullet weight is 250 grains and the powder charge is 30 grains of what I assume is FFg powder. These are copper cased, Benet primed, folded rim rounds. That is why there is no visible centerfire primer.

 

Charges in the commercial balloon head cases were limited to about 37-38 grains of FFg. with a 250 grain bullet.

 

44-40 was always a Boxer primed round, but I do not know the actual powder capacity of the old balloon head rounds. I tend to doubt they actually carried 40 grains of powder. 200 grains seems to be the earliest bullet weight.

 

Even though I have loaded a bazillion of each of these rounds, I do not have any data for you since I do not own a chronograph, and I only shoot 44-40 from rifles and 45 Colt from revolvers. Not a fair comparison.

 

The best I can do is offer some data Mike Venturino published in his book Shooting Colt Single Actions. He used revolvers with 7 1/2" barrels for both cartridges. Because modern solid head cases do not have the same powder capacity as the old balloon head cases, he was not able to stuff 40 grains into either of these cartridges.

 

So here is Mike's data:

 

45 Colt 250 grain bullet

Test Revolver: Colt SAA 7 1/2" barrel, 1873/1973 Peacemaker Centennial

 

Goex FFg 35.0 Grains, 922 fps Variation 30 fps

Goex FFFg 35.0 Grains, 973 fps Variation 26 fps

Elephant FFg 36 grains, 760 fps Variation 24 fps

Elephant FFFg 36 grains, 853 fps Variation 26 fps

 

44-40 200 grain bullet

Test Revolver: Colt SAA 7 1/2" barrel, 1873/1973 Peacemaker Centennial

 

Goex FFg 33.0 grains, 936 fps Variation 25 fps

Goex FFFg 33.0 grains, 991 fps Variation 25 fps

Elephant FFg 35.0 grains, 786 fps Variation 33 fps

Elephant FFFg 35.0 grains, 900 fts, Variation 49 fps

 

This is old data, the book was published in 1995, Elephant powder has not been made for a long time.

It is worth noting that not all Black Powder weighs the same. That is why the grain weight for the Elephant charges is larger than the weight for the Goex charges, even though both will take up the same volume. You can also see that the Elephant powder was significantly less energetic than the Goex.

 

Those with higher math skills than me can figure out power factors and all that other stuff.

 

 

And there ya have it... Driftwood "Stephen Hawking" Johnson.

 

DJ has ALWAYS... ALWAYS... been an egghead 'bout this kinda stuff. Not jokin'... I always read ever post he makes... because he always makes sense. You best jot down what he wrote... 'cause over the years... he's been irrefutable.

 

BTW... my .45LC hits groundhogs or better within 75 yards... and my 44-40's hits 'em harder further out. Don't know why... except for .22LR and .357... now I buy all else from HSM Ammo.

 

But one thing's clear... my rifles in 44-40's stay cleaner... longer... and with lower maintenance... than my .45LC.

 

ts

[Cat Brules]

Thanks everyone! I appreciate your efforts!

I love this kind of stuff...

[Trailrider #896]

The Relative Sectional Densities (weight divided by the square of the bullet diameter) of a 205 gr .44 bullet and a 230 gr. .45 bullet are very similar. To equal the RSD of a 250 gr .45, a .44 caliber bullet would need to weigh about 225gr.

 

As was pointed out by Driftwood, the narrow rim of the original .45 Colt's rounds, as well as the lack of springiness by the military copper-cased brass, combined with blackpowder fowling would have resulted in very unreliable extraction in the Winchester M1873's. I have no doubt whatsoever that that is why Winchester chose not to chamber the '73 for the .45 Colt round, in spite of the fact that it would have had much appeal to Army officers and NCO's who could have afforded them. A bad review by some Cavalry officer in the Army & Navy Journal would have been a marketing disaster for the new Winchester '73.

[Griff]

The Relative Sectional Densities (weight divided by the square of the bullet diameter) of a 205 gr .44 bullet and a 230 gr. .45 bullet are very similar. To equal the RSD of a 250 gr .45, a .44 caliber bullet would need to weigh about 225gr.

 

As was pointed out by Driftwood, the narrow rim of the original .45 Colt's rounds, as well as the lack of springiness by the military copper-cased brass, combined with blackpowder fowling would have resulted in very unreliable extraction in the Winchester M1873's. I have no doubt whatsoever that that is why Winchester chose not to chamber the '73 for the .45 Colt round, in spite of the fact that it would have had much appeal to Army officers and NCO's who could have afforded them. A bad review by some Cavalry officer in the Army & Navy Journal would have been a marketing disaster for the new Winchester '73.

Without an extractor groove it would have been impossible. The 45 Colt cartridge was designed around the 1873 SAA, which as we know uses an ejector rod pushing the case out from the inside. All one needs to do is to study the .45-70, which is a rifle round, to see the problematic issue of copper cases in repeating rifles. Besides, what, it took Colt some 5-6 years before they chambered the SAA in .44-40? The cooperation between Colt & Winchester on ammo and gun designs is not exactly known for its harmonious and gentlemanly manner. I seriously doubt that the thought of making any rifle chambered in 45 Colt ever occurred before it became fact... in 1985! And, if one were able to see the record, I believe it would show such a idea was a direct result of cowboy action shooting. My Uberti 1873 is one of the original 5 1873 Winchester clones chambered by Uberti in 45Colt. Slightly less than a year after the introduction of the mdl 94 by Winchester in 45Colt.

[Savvy Jack]

On 12/10/2016 at 10:45 AM, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

44-40 was always a Boxer primed round, but I do not know the actual powder capacity of the old balloon head rounds. I tend to doubt they actually carried 40 grains of powder. 200 grains seems to be the earliest bullet weight.

 

I know this is an old topic and is about the 45 Colt but I must comment on the 44-40 statement.

Don't shoot the messenger!!!!

Actually the very early cartridges were copper and Milbank primed but didn't last long at all. The only known three boxes of Milbank Primed boxes contain brass boxer primed cartridges. It is even rumored that early cartridges were paper patched.

 

Quote

44-40 case artifacts excavated at the Little Bighorn battlefield between 1984-2004 are indicated to be these very early and rare Milbank primed cases. However, Scott notes that they MAY be Milbank or Boxer primed cases. He states..."These brass cases are centerfire and were primed with the Winchester-Milbank or Boxer type primers." ~Scott, 2006 Archaeological Mitigation Report, page 12)

 

In a private email, Dr. Scott also told me that the early cartridge cases were made of Bloomfield Gilding metal (essentially hardened copper), but soon went to brass.  

I as well as John Kort, have dissected several mid 1880's headstamped cases and found 40gr of bp with an average compression of .21" of the powder. I have also dissected an early or even pre-1880 unheadstamed cartridge and found it to contain a heeled bullet.

It is well known that the 73' was used against Custer. It is also shown in Winchester's 1875 catalog that the early bullets had an exposed grease groove.   21 cases linked to 14 rifles were discovered on the Custer Battlefield from 1984 to 2006 but I have yet to be able to verify if they were Milbank Primed nor have any 44 Winchester bullets been confirmed found. It has also been said that many 44-40 cases were found off the battlefield on private property. 

 

For those interested in photos and more information, visit https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/

Edited July 4, 2018 by Savvy Jack

[German Jim]

On 12/10/2016 at 7:45 AM, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

Howdy

 

Your question is somewhat problematic.

 

First off, although everybody thinks the 45 Colt was loaded with 40 grains of powder, only the very early copper cased, Benet primed, folded rimmed cartridges had enough powder capacity for that large a charge. On top of that, the military reduced the charge to only 30 grains. This is a photo of a box of 45 Colt cartridges from the Frankford arsenal, made in 1874. As you can see, the bullet weight is 250 grains and the powder charge is 30 grains of what I assume is FFg powder. These are copper cased, Benet primed, folded rim rounds. That is why there is no visible centerfire primer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Driftwood, you said that the military reduced the load in the .45 to 30grains (as your photo shows).  Do you know what they used as a filler?  Did they just leave air space?

[Trailrider #896]

The military definitely DID NOT leave any airspace over the reduced loadings in .45 Colt's!  They used some type of over-powder wad, though I'm not sure what. 

[Lead Monger]

Don't forget the government made a lot of 45cal. Revolver cartridges with a little bit shorter case. It would also fit the Schofield.

[Doc Shapiro]

10 hours ago, Trailrider #896 said:

The military definitely DID NOT leave any airspace over the reduced loadings in .45 Colt's!  They used some type of over-powder wad, though I'm not sure what. 

 

It likely would have been felt of some sort.  Driftwood may have more specifics.

[Ramblin Gambler]

On 12/10/2016 at 8:29 PM, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

 

Who is doing the fact checking for what gets posted on wikipedia?

 

I

 

 

I guess this was posted a long time ago.  But the answer to your question is YOU SHOULD BE.  When I see something on wiki that I know is wrong, I edit the page. 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

21 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

It likely would have been felt of some sort.  Driftwood may have more specifics.

Nope.

 

I'm not gonna dissect one of those rounds to find out.