WTC shotgun Popper miss

[Howlin' Wolf]

Ok, here it is.

 

An individual was shooting a stage with had a popper and a MU target for missing the popper. During the course of fire he shoots the knock down to engage the popper, but his second round did not go off ( the popper round) I had him shoot two rounds at the MU target. One for failure to engage the popper, and the other for the miss of the popper. I am 99% sure I am correct but he complained that he after the stage that he didn't need to make up two shots and wanted me to look it up. I am all about following rules but for the life of me I cannot find it in the rule book. My thought process was if you have a dud round on a pistol or rifle it is a miss unless you reload and engage. Good intentions do not make a clean shoot correct?

 

What I am asking is where is this written to back up my call?

 

Thanks

 

H.Wolf

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Boy, did I miss read that! Never mind......

[Chili Pepper Pete 11917]

I think that it should have been only one make up required. He did engage the popper, the act of pointing and pulling the trigger is "engagement" so in my mind it is just a miss.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Chili

[Texas Stiles]

I would think one shot on the make up..

[Russ T. Sites]

So he hit the knock down the popper went up he engaged it pulled the trigger and had a no fire. If this is what happen then he should have to hit the make up once

[Hoss]

I make up only

[Howlin' Wolf]

ok so let me get this straight, if you start a stage with rifle and you pull the trigger but the round is a dud, NO round goes down range so it is not an engagement and you can restart. wouldn't it be the same for a shotgun ?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

One makeup shot will take care of a failure to get the round to fire at the flyer.

 

You were in the 1% (the unsure part) with that call.

 

You don't penalize a shooter with two separate penalties on the same target for the same mistake. Take the worst of what he did wrong, and that's the penalty. He missed taking a shot at the bird. He's required to fire a shot to take care of the flyer. He's got to fire on the makeup target to take care of what would, without any special stage instructions, be just a "miss - for a shot not fired on the bird." Firing that one makeup shot takes care of all of his errors on that target (a flyer is to be shot, and if missed, a makeup can be fired on the makeup target, so as to avoid getting a miss).

 

Good luck, GJ

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

ok so let me get this straight, if you start a stage with rifle and you pull the trigger but the round is a dud, NO round goes down range so it is not an engagement and you can restart. wouldn't it be the same for a shotgun ?

 

How can a dud shot at a flyer that has to be launched with a preceding shot satisfy the condition of "no round has gone down range - so give the shooter a chance to get a clean start on the stage"? Shooter already fired a shot (at the launcher plate)!

 

Now you are just grabbing at straws.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Russ T. Sites]

ok so let me get this straight, if you start a stage with rifle and you pull the trigger but the round is a dud, NO round goes down range so it is not an engagement and you can restart. wouldn't it be the same for a shotgun ?

Look at it this way, last shot out of the rifle was a dude would he reload one or two

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Look at it this way, last shot out of the rifle was a dude would he reload one or two

Ta Daaa!!

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target. RO I Def.

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

1 no fire, 1 make-up

 

Blackfoot

[Grizzly Dave]

I can see where you are coming from Wolf....

 

If you fail to hit the flyer, you have to shoot the make up.

 

and you have to HIT the makeup, not just ENGAGE it.

 

In my mind it's about the HITS not the ENGAGEMENTS.

 

BUT....

An unfired round is scored as a miss, and a miss on the flyer can be made up by shooting the make up target....

 

SO...

I guess all things considered I am confused. Those who fired a round and missed the flyer had to fire another round and hit the makeup, making 3 rounds fired (knock down, flyer, makeup) but the feller who had a dud on the flyer only fired 2 rounds and attempted to fire a third.....

 

So I clearly can not choose the glass in front of me!

 

Thinking more about it, if you don't require a round actually to be fired at the flyer to create the miss to make up, what is to stop some one from shooting the knockdown and going right to the make up target? The answer is of course a SOG/FTE penalty, but...

 

Note to self, if writing a stage with a flyer specific that a round must be fired at the flyer before shooting the make up target.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I can see where you are coming from Wolf....

 

If you fail to hit the flyer, you have to shoot the make up.

 

and you have to HIT the makeup, not just ENGAGE it.

 

In my mind it's about the HITS not the ENGAGEMENTS.

 

BUT....

An unfired round is scored as a miss, and a miss on the flyer can be made up by shooting the make up target....

 

SO...

I guess all things considered I am confused. Those who fired a round and missed the flyer had to fire another round and hit the makeup, making 3 rounds fired (knock down, flyer, makeup) but the feller who had a dud on the flyer only fired 2 rounds and attempted to fire a third.....

 

So I clearly can not choose the glass in front of me!

 

Thinking more about it, if you don't require a round actually to be fired at the flyer to create the miss to make up, what is to stop some one from shooting the knockdown and going right to the make up target? The answer is of course a SOG/FTE penalty, but...

 

Note to self, if writing a stage with a flyer specific that a round must be fired at the flyer before shooting the make up target.

New shooter hits trigger target but misses flier. Then shoots at make up and misses it. Why does he have to keep shooting at it till he hits the make up?

[Grizzly Dave]

Why is there a make up target if you are not expected to hit it? Otherwise might as well just say shoot one into the berm to make up for missing the flyer.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Shooter engaged the Popper. Dud Round. ONLY ONE make up for the dud round.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Shooter only get ONE make up on the make up target. If the shooter misses the make up, it's just a miss.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Why is there a make up target if you are not expected to hit it? Otherwise might as well just say shoot one into the berm to make up for missing the flyer.

Howdy Dave, if they shoot into the berm then that's a miss for not hitting the make-up.

[Grizzly Dave]

Howdy Dave, if they shoot into the berm then that's a miss for not hitting the make-up.

I agree, but say they just throw a shot in the general vicinity of the makeup and don't hit it.

 

I say that is a miss or shooter and fire another round to hit it given it's a shotgun target. If I am reading correctly GCK is saying that shooting at the makeup is enough and that hitting it is not required.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I agree, but say they just throw a shot in the general vicinity of the makeup and don't hit it.

 

I say that is a miss or shooter and fire another round to hit it given it's a shotgun target. If I am reading correctly GCK is saying that shooting at the makeup is enough and that hitting it is not required.

 

 

The rule book does not cover this specifically. Makeups are tough to write clearly and precisely. The STAGE INSTRUCTIONS have to be written clearly about what is expected. We usually write something like:

 

"Shoot the launcher plate, then the flyer. If flyer is missed or is not shot at, fire a makeup shot on the (designated) stationary target. A Miss on the makeup is scored a miss."

 

But then, spotters have to watch for "those golden BBs" - and using a stationary target becomes automatic-hit-scored.

 

And you have to decide what to do for buckaroos, who are not required to knockdown KDs. We usually go with - Put a shot on the launcher. If it goes down, put a shot on the flyer. If launcher plate doesn't go down, put a shot on the makeup target. After two shots, buckaroo, you are done, both shots were "hits".

 

It usually is MUCH easier to just not provide a makeup target. If you don't hit the flyer for any reason, well, that's a miss. A buckaroo - fire two shots, there are going to be "hits" regardless - have fun!.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

I agree, but say they just throw a shot in the general vicinity of the makeup and don't hit it.

 

I say that is a miss or shooter and fire another round to hit it given it's a shotgun target. If I am reading correctly GCK is saying that shooting at the makeup is enough and that hitting it is not required.

One shot at the make-up, hit it and clay miss is made-up. Miss it and it's just a miss. I think GCK is saying the same thing "Why does he have to keep shooting at it till he hits the make up?" He's asking why would you have to keeping shooting at it. Good Luck

 

[Howlin' Wolf]

OK I am good with the definition and we could beat this up all day. I just want to be well versed in the rules and not make a bad call as a T.O. I am good with the definition of engagement, I do think that it could be address in the rule book some how that an engagement would be the round firing. This would clear up a lot, simply because by definition if you have a dud, reload and have another dud on the make up target both are engagements. NOT trying to start anything just saying it would be easily fixed by saying the round must fire to be an engangment. Just a suggestion

 

Thanks for all the help this did clear it up, and I will make sure the RO's and the shooter understand the intent.

 

H.Wolf

[Howlin' Wolf]

Would really like Pale Wolf to weigh in on this.

[Grizzly Dave]

One shot at the make-up, hit it and clay miss is made-up. Miss it and it's just a miss. I think GCK is saying the same thing "Why does he have to keep shooting at it till he hits the make up?" He's asking why would you have to keeping shooting at it. Good Luck

 

 

to avoid a miss, same as any other shotgun target missed.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

 

to avoid a miss, same as any other shotgun target missed.

But you don't have to keep shooting at if you don't want to, or if you run outa shells, you can just take the miss. SG knockdowns MAY be engaged till down, or just take the miss.

[Russ T. Sites]

OK I am good with the definition and we could beat this up all day. I just want to be well versed in the rules and not make a bad call as a T.O. I am good with the definition of engagement, I do think that it could be address in the rule book some how that an engagement would be the round firing. This would clear up a lot, simply because by definition if you have a dud, reload and have another dud on the make up target both are engagements. NOT trying to start anything just saying it would be easily fixed by saying the round must fire to be an engangment. Just a suggestion

 

Thanks for all the help this did clear it up, and I will make sure the RO's and the shooter understand the intent.

 

H.Wolf

It's in there you have to read the intent of the rule, page 24 ro1 one definition of a miss is a unfired round . So a dud is a miss. Failed to engage is also in ro1 which is when the shooter doesn't engage to gain a unfair advantage

[Cheatin Charlie]

On this stage was the make-up target an option or did you have to shoot at it if you missed the popper? If you wanted to take the miss could you have moved on after you missed the popper?

 

If so he got hit with a double penalty for having to take 2 extra shots. It is not what is implied it is what is written.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Well , the stage was written 3+ shotgun, which is one knockdown, and a knockdown/flier target. So wouldn't that be 3 fired rounds? not two and a dud? It also it said any missed on the flyer can be made up on the Make Up target which is just a bell. I really just want to take the right answer back to the club. Its not about the MU as much as it is the engagement of the target.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

oh my!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

glad y'all dont ride my horse!!!

 

and the dead horse yuze is beating taint gonna even be good for fertilizer!!!

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Well , the stage was written 3+ shotgun, which is one knockdown, and a knockdown/flier target. So wouldn't that be 3 fired rounds? not two and a dud? It also it said any missed on the flyer can be made up on the Make Up target which is just a bell. I really just want to take the right answer back to the club. Its not about the MU as much as it is the engagement of the target.

2 rounds fired + 1 round dud "Engaged" = 3 . If you crank the action on a 97 and pull the trigger you have "Engaged" If you close the action and pull the trigger on a SXS you have "Engaged". At this point you can either take the miss or reload "+" and try again. "Engage" at will

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Operating the firearm and attempting the trigger pull is an engagement. It takes a lot less time for the brain to process a miss than it does to process a dud round.

Ergo, miss and makeup will be quicker than dud and makeup.

The dud shooter already has more time wasted in relation to the miss shooter; no reason to penalize them again with additional rounds being required.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Just an FYI re makeup (MU) targets...

Some matches (e.g WR) use the MU as a reference point...no hit required, but the shot must be fired in the general direction to negate misses...either actual or for any unfired rounds.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Barring specific stage instructions to the contrary, there would usually only be one MU shot required for the dud/unfired round.

Otherwise, the OP would be assessing 10 seconds for the unfired round + a miss for failure to hit the flyer...two penalties for one shot.

Stage required 3 shots FIRED...no assumption that the "dud" would have missed the flyer.

 

Also recommend a review of "failure to engage"/FTE definition.

REF: RO1 p.31

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

The original question was actually pretty simple. The answer is also pretty simple. Is there some unfathomable reasoning to add a bunch of hypothetical "but what if" unrelated questions and answers to the OP?? Unless of course everybody is just bored and want to drag this out to two or three pages for sumpin TO DO??

 

Plus One to Cheyenne Culpepper !!

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Well , the stage was written 3+ shotgun, which is one knockdown, and a knockdown/flier target. So wouldn't that be 3 fired rounds? not two and a dud? It also it said any missed on the flyer can be made up on the Make Up target which is just a bell. I really just want to take the right answer back to the club. Its not about the MU as much as it is the engagement of the target.

 

That write up is confusing to me.

 

If the shooter hits the knockdown and then hits the flier, would they still be required to shoot a 3rd shot?

 

If that is correct, it should not have said 3+ rounds, but 2+. Or am I missing something.