advice on 38-55 dies

[Sedalia Dave]

Is any one set of 38-55 dies better than the others???

 

Already planing on a Lee Factory crimp die.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Hornady "New diamention"

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Pat Riot]

I had a set of RCBS dies. They worked great. The Lee dies were for the "newer" SAAMI spec'd smaller diameter. The factory crimp die is good. The RCBS dies came with the .38 cal sizer for the traditional .38-55 bullet diameter...which is .38".

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

I use the Lee 38-55 with no problems, that said I also have RCBS that also perform well.

[Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118]

I bought a set of RCBS Cowboy dies, they are designed to work with lead bullets. 2 different shaped seating plugs depending on the shape of the bullets you are using.

TB

[Throckmorton,23149]

I"ll second the cowboy die set if you're going to shoot cast bullets. I like mine a lot.

[Pat Riot]

I forgot to mention the RCBS dies I had were "Cowboy" dies. They worked great. No malformed brass like what occured with the Lee dies with .38 bullets. I believe the Lee dies are set up for .375 - .377" bullets, if I remember correctly.

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

I am a fan of Redding dies BUT the ones for 38-55 don't work well for my cowboy rifles. I bought a set of the RCBS Cowboy dies and they are great.

[Rancho Roy]

RCBS Cow Boy dies.................Anything Case Colored is better!!!

[Tommy Reb]

Hello Dave. RCBS Cowboy Dies + Lee FCD + Lyman M Die. My rifle is a Winchester 94 with the large diameter bore and small diameter of the neck area of the chamber. Rounds loaded with .381 bullets would not chamber reliably and accuracy with .378 and smaller bullets was not too good. I used a McPherson reamer to open the neck area of the chamber for the .381 bullets and now I have reliability and accuracy.

 

We can talk more at the Troublemakers on Saturday (if it does not rain).

 

TR

[Sedalia Dave]

Hello Dave. RCBS Cowboy Dies + Lee FCD + Lyman M Die. My rifle is a Winchester 94 with the large diameter bore and small diameter of the neck area of the chamber. Rounds loaded with .381 bullets would not chamber reliably and accuracy with .378 and smaller bullets was not too good. I used a McPherson reamer to open the neck area of the chamber for the .381 bullets and now I have reliability and accuracy.

 

We can talk more at the Troublemakers on Saturday (if it does not rain).

 

TR

Thanks. I am planning on doing a chamber cast and slugging the barrel this week

[Red Cent]

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/32-40-38-55-375-other-great-non-standard-calibers/242561-336cb-38-55-a.html

 

 

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/32-40-38-55-375-other-great-non-standard-calibers/289649-38-55-chamber.html

 

Dies ain't the problem.

[John Boy]

I've reloaded several thousand 38-55 with Lee dies and the reloads don't know the difference between the Lee's or RCBS or CH4D

Any of the brands will do the job but the 'handloader' is the key to properly loaded rounds

[Pat Riot]

What rifle are you working with?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Considering how much the chamber dimensions vary amongst various rifles in this highly non-standard chambering, you have to know your rifle real well before you can be sure you have dies that will work without customization or mixing and matching.

 

good luck, GJ

[Blackey Cole]

I can only speak to the rcbs cowboy dies and the Lee dies. The Lee dies will work if they have the correct sizer for you that where the rcbs C&b dies excelled IMO they had two sizer iirc. Or it could have been seating dies as I'm not able to compare at the present as my reloading stuff is in nm and I'm in sc.

[Sedalia Dave]

What rifle are you working with?

Wesson & Harrington Target model. Bore is 0.379

[Pat Riot]

Ah, I see. Nice rifle. I thought perhaps you might have a Marlin 38-55. I bought one new back in 2001 or 2002 (it's gone now) but Marlin had the chamber sized smaller than the bore and it had to be reamed. They did it for free but it was a hassle. I thought perhaps you may have gotten one of those that had not been repaired.

[John Boy]

Wesson & Harrington Target model. Bore is 0.379

Because the Target Model grooves are 378 and the factory chambered the barrels for Winchester 375 rounds - you will have to have the chamber re-reamed out 0.004 to be able use cast 38-55 bullets that are 0.380. Otherwise, the reloads won't chamber because the cases are pregnant - too large

 

 

Model CR3855 - Target Model Rifle

Specifications

· Action - Color case hardened, break open, side lever release.

· Safety Mechanism - Patented transfer bar system.

· Barrel - 28" with a 1:18 rifling twist

• Bore – 0.373 and 0.379 grooves
• Actual: 0.374 and 0.378
• Chamber Diameter and Length –
• Sights - Lyman 17AUG .584
• Sight Radius – 32.375” … 0.009”

· Sights - None, dovetail front, barrel drilled and tapped rear…. Lyman 17A

· Length of Pull - 14" Drop at Comb - 1-3/4" Drop at Heel - 2-5/8"

· Weight - 7-1/2 lbs.

· Overall Length - 42"

· Stock - Hand checkered, American Black Walnut with case colored, crescent steel buttplate.

· Forend - Hand checkered, American Black Walnut.

· Ammunition - 38-55 Win. Factory Winchester 285gr

[Sedalia Dave]

My rifle has the same issue. the SAMMI specs for the chamber and bore size are rather messed up.

 

Based on what I have read this is at least partially due to target shooters that breach seat the bullet and then insert the case full of BP with a Wad holding it in place. This also appears to be the origin of the slightly longer cases.

I have also read that it is due to target shooters using hollow base bullets. The bullet would bump up to the barrel diameter as they hit the rifling. The links Red Cent provided talk to this as well as other historical documentation I have read.

 

I asked the question about dies as it appears that there is quite a variation on bullet diameters and I wondered about expander buttons being the proper size for the bullet. A .375 expander button is not going to work for a .379/.380 bullet.

 

The rifling appears to be very shallow and research shows this to also be common for 38-55 rifles.

 

Thanks for the info John Boy. Tommy Reb has a chamber reamer and I am going to take him up on the use of it.

 

I am still working on getting a good chamber cast. Tried last night but the barrel was really cold and the casting had a lot of imperfections.

[John Boy]

A .375 expander button is not going to work for a .379/.380 bullet.

 

So, here's what one does shooting 379 - 380 Pb bullets, which will provide the proper neck tension for the bullet:

* Track of the Wolf Expander plug ... https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/226/1/DIE-379-EXP

* Used in combination with the Lee Neck Expander Die ... https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/226/1/LEE-DIE-45-EX

And if you use a mold with the bullet dropping > 380 ... buy the next size Expander Plug greater then turn it down on the drill press or the lathe. I shoot several Ideal mold bullets in different rifles that are 381 - 382 - 383

I probably have 10 or 15 plugs: some to exact size and larger if I use an odd ball mold and

Plus, the Expander Plugs make excellent BP compression plugs if one is a BPCR shooter

[Red Cent]

The 38-55 chamber, according to SSAMI, has a lousy chamber design. If you are into it, read my posts above. Another disadvantage with the Marlin lever gun is the leade angle. Most leade angles range from 1.5 degrees to, maybe 3 degrees. The Marlin lever gun has a 6 degree slope. Worse than an unlengthened forcing cone.

 

Marlin owners had problems chambering (as John Boy stated) the .380/.381" bullets but it is the brass, not the bullets. Or you could state that it is the chamber specs. It is documented that those who took their 336 and had it "fixed" to take larger bullets, the accuracy was worse.

 

For those who are deep into the accuracy thing, this is your next step. Take a fired case leaving the primer in the case. Pour it full of lead. Chamber the round and then force a chunk of lead down the bore that is big enough to fill the chamber up and into the rifling. Open the action and lightly tap out the mess. Yes, you can use Cerakote but I ain't. Seems you use it twice. The first and last time.

 

Unless you can consistently shoot 2" groups at 100 yards. If your gun can shoot this good, go have fun.

 

Starline is selling the long (2.130") and short (2.082") 38-55 cases with thinner brass at the neck. This should make life better. Once the doctor releases me, I will get back into working on this stuff.

[John Boy]

Red Cent - Clarifications:

* I don't own a Marlin. The chamber issue related to the H&R 38-55 is because Green Mountain who supplied the H&R barrels, had the chambers cut to SAMMI 375 smokeles powder spec's not taking into consideration the different PB bullet mold diameters run between 379 to 382.

 

* Brass v bullets: In the H&R, the issue is the PB bullet diameter trying to be stuffed into a 38-55 case that was spec'd for jacket bullets of 375. The H&R chamber has to be re-reamed 0.004 - the brass has to be expanded to 379-380 - the reloads made then fireformed. After this, the reloads are home free and chamber with the larger bullet diameters

 

* The Uberti BPCR chamber is cut for PB bullets so no re-reaming of the chamber is required

 

* Accuracy: I had my Uberti re-throated for breech seated shooting & aids fixed cartridge shooting, seated out with the bullet slightly engraved by the leading bore cut. With the Uberti and a 12X power Fecker scope, the breech seated Dr Hudson Ideal 375292 bullet reloads shoot way better than MOA out to 300yds. With the Uberti, fixed cartridge & the H&R with vernier sights, using the Ideal 375166 bullet - less than MOA also out to 300yds. For brass I use only Starline 2.125 cases (the old Ballard rifle length) in the Uberti & H&R. I also had an 1887 Wurfflein relined for 38-55 using the 375 chamber reamer. For this rifle with a mid range vernier and the Ideal 37584 (379 diameter) - same MOA accuracy. All my 38-55 reloads are black powder. Maybe one day I'll try smokeless - just a maybe!

And depending on my trigger finger & mother nature, I will have days where the groups open up past MOA

 

* As stated I never owned a Marlin in any caliber and have no idea of the 38-55 accuracy with stock or vernier sights. For Marlin owners, I am sure Marlin accuracy shooting 38-55 reloads can be achieved. Would like to hear from those owners what size groups for various distance have been obtained - Much Thanks

 

And just not to lead folks astray, the Starline cases are 2.125 not 2.130 and Winchester brass taper much thinner to the mouth

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

 

 

Yes, you can use Cerakote (to make a chamber cast)

 

Ummm, that would be Cerrosafe alloy you want to use. Cerakote is a spray on metal protective coating, a new alternative to bluing or plating.

 

I have had good luck making chamber casts in lever rifles, but it's kinda like fitting recoil pads. The first one you do is often not very satisfying or time efficient. But with practice, it's easy and much more accurate than trying to hammer lead into a chamber..

 

Good luck, GJ

[John Boy]

Ummm, that would be Cerrosafe alloy you want to use.

Thanks Joe - I missed that typo in Red Cent's post

Follow up on chamber casts: use a warm metal funnel so the spout can pour the Cerrosafe directly into the chamber. And to preclude having a bugger of a time removing the cast - Remove the Extractor

Rotometal has the cheapest price for their 'Cerrosafe' - $12.50 a lb that lasts a lifetime v other sources at $15 a half pound

https://rotometals.com/chamber-casting-alloy-ingot/