Cowboy Junky Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 I need some help proving a point I know it’s been covered and I “better” be right because I went to the mat on this one over the weekend……..the end results was I believe people think I’m out in left field but I feel correct from what I have read here and in the books. So here goes. This ISN’T what happened but it might make the scenario easier to explain and grasp for others that doubt me. If I’m wrong at least no one will know……lol. Two rifle targets only, R1 on the far right of the range R2, 15 yards away on the far left side of the range. Instructions say alternate 10 rounds on the two rifle targets. Shooter aims at R1 and misses but then reengages it and hits it. Then they engage R2 and miss it and re-engage it and hit it……the shooter continues that for 10 rounds……..so basically it’s as if they tried a double tap alternating sweep but missed a shot each time they switched targets. Hopefully that makes senses? If so what’s the call? PS no one got angry and it was handled well........I just think in the end most people thought I was wrong and accepted my call but still disagreed. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Hey JUNKY. What was YOUR call? 'P' and 5 misses, if I read your info correctly. And here is my thinking: Once the shooter actually made the FIRST HIT on either target, his/her shooting sequence was therefore established. In other words, the 4th shot should have been on the SAME target WHEN the FIRST HIT was established. Because the 4th shot hit the other target, I feel like it was a 'P'. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stump Water Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 P + 5 misses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 ^^^^^^^^^^ #1 = MISS #2 = HIT (R1) #3 = MISS #4 = P (s/b on R1) #5 = MISS #6 = HIT #7 = MISS #8 = HIT #9 = MISS #10 = HIT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickel City Dude Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 The shooter obviously didn't understand the course of fire. I would re-explain it to him and give him a reshoot. But then I am easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 P and 5 misses if he did the same thing every time, missed and then hit. Seems like a double tap with a miss each time. Scenario called for alternating targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 5 misses and a P Senario called for alternating targets. Shooter shot as Double Tap. =P 5 targets were missed in the process, = 5 misses. RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 5 misses......is all I called. I think "intent" is gone, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 The targets were not engaged in proper order, hence the "P". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 P intent has nothing to do with it,,,,, the fourth shot should have been on the same target as the 2nd... we all intend to shoot it right, well most of the time,,, hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Yep, everything was fine (just misses) till he hit R4, that round should have gone to R1 cause R2 was missed by round #3. Good Luck #4 = P (s/b on R1) Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Why wasn't the Procedural incurred at the second shot when the shooter re-engaged R1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Why wasn't the Procedural incurred at the second shot when the shooter re-engaged R1? Cause a miss cannot cause a P. The first round missed, we aren't sure if he was aiming (engaging) at R1 or terrible aim at R2, it's just a miss. Once he hit a target then the alternating hits must be in order. Good Luck J R-E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Gunz SASS #47477 Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 The shooter obviously didn't understand the course of fire. I would re-explain it to him and give him a reshoot. But then I am easy. And you would be wrong. It is the shooters responsibility to understand the course of fire when they come to the firing line. Bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 P and 5 misses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 The shooter obviously didn't understand the course of fire. I would re-explain it to him and give him a reshoot. But then I am easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 5 misses and a P. No reason to give a reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 I'm not giving you my opinion, since PWB already chimed in... it'd be like "pilin' on"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646 Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Was this a brand new shooter? I made all kinds of mistakes like this early on. Now when i do something like this i can claim Age Induced Misthought. Imis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Flush Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 are you saying you can't tell the shooter engaged r1 twice when the targets are 15 yrds apart? The miss did'nt cause the P the fact that he engaged R1 twice did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 are you saying you can't tell the shooter engaged r1 twice when the targets are 15 yrds apart? The miss did'nt cause the P the fact that he engaged R1 twice did. He gets a "P" for HITTING them in the wrong order...not missing them. The first miss on a "non-designated target" (R1) is ONLY a miss... the shooter isn't committed to the order of alternating HITS until he actually HITS a target (2nd shot @ R1). From that point on, he MUST alternate shots between the two targets. Shot #4 (which HIT R2) should have been on R1...THAT is when the "procedural" for HITTING the targets "out of order" applies. Any additional "out of order" shots are irrelevant as long as they HIT rifle targets...any shots that MISS rifle targets from that point on are MISSES only since only one "P" may be assessed per stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 If I did this, I would expect fives misses and an SOG penalty. Most of us can shoot well enough with our rifles so that a repetitive miss as described would raise some eyebrows. Just saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 If I did this, I would expect fives misses and an SOG penalty. Most of us can shoot well enough with our rifles so that a repetitive miss as described would raise some eyebrows. Just saying... You should probably do some reading on what warrants a SOG penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 If I did this, I would expect fives misses and an SOG penalty. Most of us can shoot well enough with our rifles so that a repetitive miss as described would raise some eyebrows. Just saying... I believe that the "for a competitive advantage" element is missing from the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Please notice that I did not say that I would award another cowboy an SOG, but if I did this intentionally, to reduce the amount of movement in a manner to save time, I would not feel justified in arguing against getting an SOG myself. I know that smarter and more experienced shooters than me serve as TOs and posse marshals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 As I understand it, the shooter actually missed with two rounds. Then, it sounds like, he re-engaged R1, R2, etc., hitting the targets properly in order, until his 5th through 10th rounds were consumed. Does that give him only 2 misses and a P? Or does he still get 5 misses? He would have hit the remaining targets in order, right? Cat Brules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 As I understand it, the shooter actually missed with two rounds. Then, it sounds like, he re-engaged R1, R2, etc., hitting the targets properly in order, until his 5th through 10th rounds were consumed. Does that give him only 2 misses and a P? Or does he still get 5 misses? He would have hit the remaining targets in order, right? Cat Brules OP indicated an attempted "double-tap" on each target "each time they switched targets" (as illustrated in post #4) = miss/hit x 5 + the P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventura Slim, SASS #35690 Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Train wreck for sure. If you know its a P then all at the closest target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Train wreck for sure. If you know its a P then all at the closest target. You wouldn't be suggesting intentional SOG behavior would you? (is there any other kind?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 Our area clubs would call for a "P" and whatever number of shots missed the plates. We decided many years ago to shoot all matches the same as a sanctioned or Championship SASS matches, to help people develop good habits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, October 29, 2016 - political Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, October 29, 2016 - political P intent has nothing to do with it,,,,, the fourth shot should have been on the same target as the 2nd... we all intend to shoot it right, well most of the time,,, hehe What!! Don't tell Hitlary and the FBI Director! Link to comment
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