Shorty Jack Hammer Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Looks like I'm going to be picking up a Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70 from a friend of a friend. I don't know exactly which model it is but it's one of their higher end models with beautiful wood, silver cap, creedmore sight etc etc. I'll know more this Friday when I get a chance to se it again. I've been wanting one and it's a fantastic price and in fantastic shape. Anyways I plan on loading my own ammunition for long range side matches and general target shooting. I've been noticing most factory smokeless ammo seems to be 405 grain. Kinda wondering what others who shoot them are loading for theirs and a good source for larger grain bullets. My usual sources don't make them that big. Obviously not looking for load recipes here (unless you want to pm me some), but maybe some other advice or tips anyone wants to pass on. I have quite a lot of Trailboss so I was planning on using that for powder. Wondering about roll crimping and info on loading 45-70's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex M Rugers #6621 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Buffalo Arms in Sandpoint , ID is a good place to start looking for stuff. Check their website. Also Sage Outfitters. You have just opened the door to a whole new world if you really get into feeding that big bore single shot. Have fun , Rex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Crimes Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 You are in for a heap of fun and enjoyment. I bought a Pedersoli Boss a few months back and am very happy with it (there are pics on this site somewhere). http://www.sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=251772&hl=sharps I use 405gr cast rds and also smokeless (for now). The first thing is everyone with a Sharps will let you know that smokeless is just one step (a very small step) away from blasphemy and you arent a real Sharps man until you make smoke. There is no doubt if you want the best from your gun go smokeless. I also tried TB in mine but have gone away from it. When I chrono'd my TB rounds the MV were well below what was published for BP and I wanted to try and get the 405gr up to the BP velocities I had seen posted (around 1400F/S). To get this sort of MV from TB you really have to fill that case and the amounts were well over published data limits for the ADI powder I was using (I believe the same powder as you get). Also while TB gives low MV with a lot of bulk in the cartridge it also has high pressures relative to other powders that provide high velocity but dont fill as much of the cartridge. I didnt want to push the MV up and risk to high a pressure (prob not likely but there was no upside to chasing MV with TB). Therefore I have gone to AR2207 (ADI powder I think equates to H4198- that doesnt mean its grain for grain but similar burning rate). I am using relativly small amounts to get the MV I was chasing of around 1400. I am still in the process of playing with this load and am off to the range in a couple of week with the chrono to test it at 2 and 300M. cheers and enjoy the messing and fussing about to begin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shorty Jack Hammer Posted October 19, 2016 Author Share Posted October 19, 2016 Good point on the TB, I just happen to have a bunch of it so I was going to try it. I've read some other forums where people are shying away from it too. I may try a different powder. I also want to go to BP, but like you said I'm going to start with smokeless for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Crimes Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Good point on the TB, I just happen to have a bunch of it so I was going to try it. I've read some other forums where people are shying away from it too. I may try a different powder. I also want to go to BP, but like you said I'm going to start with smokeless for now. I do have plinking loads with TB for my 45-70 Sabatti Double Rifle and they are fun (read dont rip my arm off) to shoot when I just want to punch some paper. I prob wont bother doing the same for the Sharps given the loads I am developing are pretty mild given the weight of the sharps V's the DR. As a comparisson I am pushing a 405gr jacketed rd from the DR at 2000fps (I am going to bring that back to 1800, it just hurts to much ) V's the 1400fps for a cast round from the sharps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duffield, SASS #23454 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 IMR 3031 is your best friend in loading the 45/70 with smokeless. I cast my own bullets, and am now using Magma's mould for their 385 grain bullet. My Pedersoli Sharps likes oversized bullets. I size them to .459 but .460 would probably be better. Duffield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 405 grain is a good round for the shorter distances. If you want to go past 400 yards you will have to go to a heavier bullet. SASS side matches for big bore are usually under 200 yards and they combine smokeless and BP. Winter Range/EOT and other bigger matches may offer powder separation in the categories. They are usually timed so the most hits in the least amount of time is the winner. I have a Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70. I replaced the sights with Soule rear long range and a hooded front with a spirit level and the ability to change the cross hairs/post. Really good sights are your friend at real long range. I shoot a 535 gr. Creedmore 20/1 lead bullet pushed by 2f Swiss. The BPCR shooters all tend to use Swiss 2f or 1.5f. Our range lets us shoot out to 1,000 yards. Experiment with bullet weights and powders to find what your rifle likes. Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Shoot black for the best accuracy and most joy Ck these forums out for info. http://www.bpcr.net/forum/ http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/ Get the Soule sights...... OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Cash Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 We shoot the 405's in my wife's Shiloh and both 405's and 500's in mine. After about 500 yards I see evidence of tumbling, so I switch to the 500's after 400 or so yards. I am starting in with the black-powder and it is a blast. For Smokeless I have used a number of powders but seem to have the best luck with Alliant 5744. I have been told by some BPCR shooters that the 5744 was formulated to try and emulate the black powder. It is a bit more pricy than some of the other stuff but for me it works better than anything I have found as of yet. I have used 3031, 4198 and a few others but the 5744 seems to be best so far. I will be going out this weekend with both Sharps, and have loaded up with KIK 2 fg, 5744, GOEX, and Black MZ a black powder Sub. The range I am going to is one of the few in the area that goes out to 1000 yards. I'll see how they do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Shoot black for the best accuracy and most joy Ck these forums out for info. http://www.bpcr.net/forum/ http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/ Get the Soule sights...... OLG can't believe Lumpy Gritz had a powder question and didn't mention Unique! I shoot Unique in my 45-70s, with a 330 grn bullet, accurate out to 400 yds (haven't shot further....yet!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk James Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 I would agree that black powder is the best for long distances. Used to shoot with a Flagstaff AZ club who shot out to 800 yds and shot great groups. The club spend years finding the best formula. They could really shoot. I could not get my rifle to group well at these distances with smokeless powder. I am sure others have found formulas that will. I like to shot a Meister 405 one groove bullet with 5700. Was good to 400 yd-500 yds in my C-Sharps. Was an easy load to clean and ran great in the Dillon 550. Many of my friends shot 3031 with great success. Loads with 5700 were loaded at approx. 1200 fps and easy on the shoulder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 can't believe Lumpy Gritz had a powder question and didn't mention Unique! I shoot Unique in my 45-70s, with a 330 grn bullet, accurate out to 400 yds (haven't shot further....yet!) I do use Unique for 'lite' .45-70 loads in my '86. For serious long range in either my Shiloh .45-70 or .45-90. I use real 'black' and a 540 gn Paul Jones Creedmoor bullet. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shorty Jack Hammer Posted October 20, 2016 Author Share Posted October 20, 2016 Thanks for all the replies pards. From what I'm reading, for shorter range shots like in side matches 405 go would be fine, but 500 + for the longer shots. No on the TB powder with some good suggestions of others to try, and BP is the best for really long range shots.....oh and good sights. Sounds like this is gonna be a whole lotta fun, I can't wait to get this thing and get shooting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Must be nice, I too want a sharps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shorty Jack Hammer Posted October 20, 2016 Author Share Posted October 20, 2016 Must be nice, I too want a sharps I'm working 16 extra hours of OT a month to get toy money for myself. I made a deal with my wife that I wouldn't use our "normal money" for my shooting toys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinpan McGurk Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 I have a Pedersoli Sharps Heavy Buffalo Rifle in 45-70 and have used Trail Boss, IMR 3031 and IMR 4895 all worked fine with two bullets I use..I cast a 325 grain lead bullet and also use the 405 grain Remington JSP. All the manuals say the diameter should be .458/.459 but I find .460 shoots better in the lead bullet if the rifle will chamber them. I happen to like the 325 grainer because you can load it down or drive it fairly fast, and at the low to mid-load end of the powder scale I find the recoil is significantly lower to me than the 405's. For hunting I tend to use the 405 JSP loaded at the higher end but usually only use these in a Henry All Weather or Win 1886. I also find that the heavy bullet tends to tumble at very long ranges as it loses energy and that the 325 grainer seems to be less prone to that. My main powder is IMR 3031 since it can be used across multiple calibers like 30-06, and .223 with good results, keeps from having to buy and store lots of different powders given the high cost of powder nowadays and also I find Trail Boss to be a bit more expensive given that they don't give you a full pound of powder for the price and the 45/70 gobbles up a lot of powder. I am a big fan of the caliber and have four rifles chambered for it and am always looking for another one. Tinpan McGurk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Seen #16162 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 I use a 405 gr. cast bullet sized .458" and IMR-3031 loaded for around 1250 fps. My rifle is a Pedersoli Rolllng Block 45-70 with a Lee Shaver Soule type tang sight and a Globe front sight with interchangeable inserts. I have used this load for hunting buffalo and long range matches. At 165 measured yards I have shot clear through the broadside of a standing buffalo. I have shot 600 yard long range matches sitting position using crosssticks. 3031 Is ideal for the 45-70. It fills the case well and duplicates blackpowder velocity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shorty Jack Hammer Posted October 21, 2016 Author Share Posted October 21, 2016 As far as crimping the 45-70. Should I use a factory crimp die, or is just using a seating die good enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Crimes Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 I didnt bother crimping my DR and I think you will find a lot dont crimp their Sharps either. I have read that the belling (after proper seating in a seating die) of the case can assist with consistent seating of the case in the chamber? I do crimp in my DR now as I have found I put a bit to much bell on my cases and they didnt load easy into the chamber, for consistency I do the same for the sharps loads I am working on (but may change that when I go to black?). I use a Lee factory crimp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blarney Kid Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 I get my 500gr bullets from Montana Cast Bullets in Bozeman, MT. Ron makes both smokeless and BP bullets. When you get the loads you like you need to come over to Forsythe, MT for the Quigley shoot on Father's day weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shorty Jack Hammer Posted October 21, 2016 Author Share Posted October 21, 2016 I didnt bother crimping my DR and I think you will find a lot dont crimp their Sharps either. I have read that the belling (after proper seating in a seating die) of the case can assist with consistent seating of the case in the chamber? I do crimp in my DR now as I have found I put a bit to much bell on my cases and they didnt load easy into the chamber, for consistency I do the same for the sharps loads I am working on (but may change that when I go to black?). I use a Lee factory crimp. Thanks Major. So probably just enough crimp for easy clambering if that's an issue. I get my 500gr bullets from Montana Cast Bullets in Bozeman, MT. Ron makes both smokeless and BP bullets. When you get the loads you like you need to come over to Forsythe, MT for the Quigley shoot on Father's day weekend. Now that sounds like a fun plan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Looks like I'm going to be picking up a Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70 from a friend of a friend. I don't know exactly which model it is but it's one of their higher end models with beautiful wood, silver cap, creedmore sight etc etc. I'll know more this Friday when I get a chance to se it again. I've been wanting one and it's a fantastic price and in fantastic shape. Anyways I plan on loading my own ammunition for long range side matches and general target shooting. I've been noticing most factory smokeless ammo seems to be 405 grain. Kinda wondering what others who shoot them are loading for theirs and a good source for larger grain bullets. My usual sources don't make them that big. Obviously not looking for load recipes here (unless you want to pm me some), but maybe some other advice or tips anyone wants to pass on. I have quite a lot of Trailboss so I was planning on using that for powder. Wondering about roll crimping and info on loading 45-70's You do realize that you're going to have to switch your getup from Monte Walsh to Quigley after you get it right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shorty Jack Hammer Posted October 21, 2016 Author Share Posted October 21, 2016 You do realize that you're going to have to switch your getup from Monte Walsh to Quigley after you get it right? Haha, yeah Kid I reckon I am. I do have some Quigley looking gear that might work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Crimes Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Thanks Major. So probably just enough crimp for easy clambering if that's an issue. That's what I do. I am sure there are others here with way more ideas and thoughts on this. Its probably worthwhile starting to put together a library of BP books as well. I will start with - SPG Lubricants BP Cartridge Reloading Primer by Mike Venturino and Steve Garbe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Crimp with smokeless to help with the burn. No crimp needed with BP. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Crimp with smokeless to help with the burn. No crimp needed with BP. OLG +1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Ed SASS #30639 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Major Grimes That Reloading Primer will get you started ,but have change the way we reload BPCR since they printed that book. They or we don't use Magnum Primers any more. Here is the way I do it today. After the first fire forming I never resize the brass again, I will Anneal about every 7 To 10 reloads ,after shooting I will punch out the primer an put the case in a water bucket with a shot of Dawn dish soap, when I get home put them in the tumbler with ceramic media when done I lay them out to dry , Now I'm ready to reload ,I put in a new Primer, Winchester Large Rifle Primer,then the powder 2F Goex . I have Lyman BP Measurer ,I pour the prescribed amount of powder right out of the Measurer down 24"drop tube into the case,I then put in a Milk carton card wad an compress it down to were the driving band is just above the case, an now i hand slip the Bullet into the case ,take the Depriming rod out of the sizing die now put into the press just a few turns an then run loaded bullet up into the die then keep screwing in the die untill you can just turn the bullet but it won't come out of the case ,just lock the die in place an you ready to do them all. The Bullet that I have been using for the last couple of years is the Buffalo Arms Money bullet 525Grs. sized to .459 using homemade lube , Dan Theodores recipe. I'm 77 years old an have been shooting BPCR for 50 years an Muzzle loaders before that. I have never broke any records but still win a match now an again. Dusty Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shorty Jack Hammer Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 Crimp with smokeless to help with the burn. No crimp needed with BP. OLG Ok sounds good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shorty Jack Hammer Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 Yee haw. So today I was able to get in and put my down payment on the Sharps. The guy owns a pawn shop and is/was selling it on consignment there because it is/was his personal gun. I put a big chunk down and he let me put it on lay away. I should actually have it in my safe by the last week in November. It is the model I was hoping it was too. Its the Pedersoli "Q" Down Under with a really nice additional front and rear sight he had added. I cant wait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatbush Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 I'm working 16 extra hours of OT a month to get toy money for myself. I made a deal with my wife that I wouldn't use our "normal money" for my shooting toys. Good plan. That's how we worked things out too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 I'm working 16 extra hours of OT a month to get toy money for myself. I made a deal with my wife that I wouldn't use our "normal money" for my shooting toys.no job no wife so my problem is that life hit hard last few months can't get ahead on my fixed income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Shoot black for the best accuracy and most joy Ck these forums out for info. http://www.bpcr.net/forum/ http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/ Get the Soule sights...... OLG Yep. I use a 530 grain Postell over Swiss 1 1/2 in a Pedersoli, and it will easily put 'em all under 12" @ 500 yards, and normally under 10", with my best being 3 3/8", which was undoubtedly just a fluke as I've never come close to that again. I also have a Shiloh .45-70, but the Pedersoli slightly, but consistently, out-shoots it. Get a decent Soule and a bubble level front globe, and take your time setting it up. If the rear sight mast isn't perfectly perpendicular to the bore axis and the bubble level, the higher you crank it, the further off it will be. There are a lot of accuracy tricks you can use to better your chances of winning a match; uniform the flash holes, use fire-formed cases, use cases from the same manufacturer, use the same primers each time, trim to a uniform length after fire-forming, index the cases the same way in the chamber each time, weigh your bullets and inspect them for defects, etc. I know one person who also weighs his cases and picks the most uniform for matches, and bench rest shooters who will buy large quantities of primers with the same lot number before working up a load. In that game though, where a few ten thousandths of an inch may determine the winner, it's worth it. Me, I ain't that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shorty Jack Hammer Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 no job no wife so my problem is that life hit hard last few months can't get ahead on my fixed income. Hope the hard hit passes and you can get ahead Blackey. You need that Sharpes Yep. I use a 530 grain Postell over Swiss 1 1/2 in a Pedersoli, and it will easily put 'em all under 12" @ 500 yards, and normally under 10", with my best being 3 3/8", which was undoubtedly just a fluke as I've never come close to that again. I also have a Shiloh .45-70, but the Pedersoli slightly, but consistently, out-shoots it. Get a decent Soule and a bubble level front globe, and take your time setting it up. If the rear sight mast isn't perfectly perpendicular to the bore axis and the bubble level, the higher you crank it, the further off it will be. There are a lot of accuracy tricks you can use to better your chances of winning a match; uniform the flash holes, use fire-formed cases, use cases from the same manufacturer, use the same primers each time, trim to a uniform length after fire-forming, index the cases the same way in the chamber each time, weigh your bullets and inspect them for defects, etc. I know one person who also weighs his cases and picks the most uniform for matches, and bench rest shooters who will buy large quantities of primers with the same lot number before working up a load. In that game though, where a few ten thousandths of an inch may determine the winner, it's worth it. Me, I ain't that good. Wow that sounds like some serious shooting science, I'll probably not be that good either . I don't know the make but the guy I'm getting it from had globe type sight that has a level behind it. The rear sight looks pretty substantial and well built. Hopefully they will be good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Moon Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 405gr lubed with spg, 70gr ffg .6 wadding compressed, and I do crimp mine. My pedersoli shoots consistently. Montana vintage arms for stuff . I use a venier sight though many swear by the soule. If shooting extended ranges a spirit level is invaluable. And don't forget to use a blow tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinpan McGurk Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 I crimp the smokeless rounds, crimping helps smokeless burn properly but I also shoot 45-70 lever guns which should use crimped cases. I use the Lee factory crimper and the Redding roll crimper both seem to work find..Lee crimper has the advantage that the cases don't have to be trimmed to be exactly the same length. I put a Creedmore type tang sight from Track of the Wolf on since they are a bit cheaper than the Soule types. Tinpan McGurk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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